[NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

Fri Apr 11 08:55:42 AKDT 2014

Thank you for that opinion.
I tend to agree, especially with FAI and the complex non-symmetrical
geometry. It makes judging center more accurate since we don’t have
reference lines extending into our line of vision making as presenter more
subjective.
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Atwood, Mark
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:39 AM
To: NSRCA General
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

Only my opinion, but I think we need to judge “as intended” simply because
anything else will be far too difficult to execute consistently.  As you
mentioned, maneuvers like a cuban eight, 4-point, figure M, etc, all have
well defined INTENDED centers which make judging center fairly easy, leaving
more mental horsepower to evaluate the rest of the maneuver.  If we have to
start waiting until the completion of the presented maneuver to try (and Try
is a key word since truly evaluating center on a long, large, poorly
performed maneuver is subjective at best) then I think we’ll be
significantly lowering our quality of judging.

My $0.02

Mark Atwood
Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President
5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
Direct: 440.229.2502 |  Fax: 440.684.3102
<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>
www.paragon-inc.com

On Apr 11, 2014, at 12:08 PM, J N Hiller < jnhiller at earthlink.net
<mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net> > wrote:

Since this was attached to my earlier post I’ll respond.
The question I’m left with is:
Is center based on correct geometry or geometry that is - or - can be flown
incorrectly, such as a non vertical extending the side of the maneuver
beyond the finish of the ¼ R – or – a ¾ loop that has the correct R from a
starting point offset towards center forcing the center of the ¾ loop off
center – or – a ¾ loop with a larger radius also off center relative to the
start of the ¼ R.
Are we judging “As Presented or Intended”?
If “As Intended”; apply the same concept to other maneuvers such as a Cuban
eight. If the crossover is on center, is the maneuver centered even thought
it may have un-equal ¾ loops elongating one side?
Again are we judging “As Presented or Intended”?
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>  [
mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Don Ramsey
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 4:40 AM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair
I don’t understand what the problem is with this maneuver.  The Powerpoint
for F-15 is incorrect on the NSRCA site.  Peter Uhlig did the original and
this is what he originally drew.  I contacted Michael Ramel about this and
Peter updated the presentation.  It is really simple.  The entry loop starts
at center, the upline is then displaced from center, the upper loop is
centered and the integrated roll is centered on the pole.  That means the
model comes through center level upright.  Entry and exit lines have no
bearing on the centering of the loop, the main criteria is the entry radius
defines the size of the loop on top.  Peter’s latest Powerpoint shows this
clearly and has been confirmed by the F3A chairman.

Don

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>  [
mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N Hiller
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 7:25 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair

I’m one of the folks that sit in the chair and judge this stuff.
Referencing - 2014 FAI Sporting Code - F3 Aerobatics.pdf  - under lines
5B.8.3, entry and exit lines need to be horizontal and of recognizable
length. I understand this to mean, not equal in length and no specific
length. Both lines could be within the boundary of the geometry.
Perfect geometry with equal radiuses wound center on the start of the ¼ R,
but cannot be confirmed until the ¾ loop radius is judged to be equal.
A maneuver having un-equal radiuses would center the maneuver to no
predefined point which will be somewhere within the 3/4 loop.
A larger radius ¾ loop would offset the center towards the entrance side
where a smaller radius ¾ loop would offset the center towards the exit side
neither of which will be directly above the start of the ¼ loop.
Understanding this, there can be no pre-stated center reference.
Jim Hiller
Spokane

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>  [
mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jas S
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:54 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair

If there was a roll on the exit, then I think we would be in the 'somewhere'
center right?

Time for dinner, need to replenish...

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Jas S < justanotherflyr at gmail.com
<mailto:justanotherflyr at gmail.com> > wrote:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-pattern-flying-101/11596737-f-15-figure-9
-centerline-question.html
Post #8

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Jas S < justanotherflyr at gmail.com
<mailto:justanotherflyr at gmail.com> > wrote:

Oh yea, forgot about those lol. Being in a straight line, the 'line' (whole
maneuver) is centered with those.

Someone posted a drawing of the 9 on RCU, and while the center is the whole
maneuver works, isn't it going to be the center of the loops/roll when done
correctly?

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Derek Koopowitz < derekkoopowitz at gmail.com
<mailto:derekkoopowitz at gmail.com> > wrote:
So in years past we’ve had a 1 ½ snap roll followed by a 2 ½ rolls in the
opposite direction.  Where is the center on that maneuver?  The center is
the mid-point between the start and finish of the maneuver (including
straight line in and straight line out).  There is no definitive middle to
these types of maneuvers and so a statement that it is “somewhere in between
the 2 ½ rolls” would be accurate as well – it depends on how fast/slow those
rolls were done.

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>  [mailto:
nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> ] On Behalf Of John Gayer
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:03 PM
To: General pattern discussion

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair

Derek,
"Somewhere in the 3/4 loop portion" is awfully vague and unjudgeable. I
could buy anywhere in the 3/4 loop portion but not somewhere.
The center you are describing would appear to be affected somehow by the
entry and exit lines of the maneuver as per your description in the March
K-Factor. I don't see that. This maneuver(figure 9) could be described as a
single loop with a straight vertical line between the first quadrant and the
last three quadrants. What rolls occur do not affect that basic shape. That
places the center of the maneuver at the initial pullup into a quarter loop
just as it would for a simple loop. The apex of the 3/4 loop would also be
on the centerline and so would the return to level flight at the exit.
As far as the straight line entry and exit being somehow offset, I don't see
that either. The entry line ends at the quarter loop pullup and exit line
begins upon completion of the 3/4 loop. Those two points should form a
vertical line. I see that as the maneuver centerline as well.
It's certainly true that the aresti shows the wrong center and it is
certainly true that the sub-committee chair has the last word but he should
be using a better word than "somewhere".
John
On 4/8/2014 3:22 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:

Anthony,

This shouldn’t be confusing at all… the center of the maneuver is the middle
point between the start and end of the maneuver.  How much more simple can
it get?   The statement that the “middle should be somewhere in the ¾ loop
portion” is correct – depending on the size of the ¾ loop which must match
the radius of the ¼ loop from horizontal to vertical when the maneuver
starts.  That center portion will change for every pilot as each pilot will
fly it differently.

Your comment about “many outside the US” isn’t accurate – if they see it
differently then they are incorrect.  The clarification I got is straight
from the F3 sub-committee chair…

-Derek

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>  [
mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony Romano
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 11:27 AM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] >From the Judges Chair

Would love to see a review of maneuver 13 of the Finals sequence. In the
March Kfactor the center was described as "should be the middle of the
maneuver somewhere in the ¾ loop portion." While the many outside the US see
it that the loop is centered and the Aresti in the latest FAI sporting code
show the upline being centered.

A bit confusing,

Anthony
  _____

Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 09:28:00 -0700
From: joncarter60 at comcast.net <mailto:joncarter60 at comcast.net>
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair
Hey guys - we got an excellent suggestion from the group for last month's
article so I thought I would ask again! Anyone have a burning maneuver or
judging question? Just let me know.

Thanks,

Jon Carter
Judging Committee Chairman

Sent via the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing
list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

--
Jason
http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/

--
Jason
http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/

--
Jason
http://jasonshangar.weebly.com/
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20140411/d7e5aea9/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.png
Type: image/png
Size: 6692 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20140411/d7e5aea9/attachment.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image002.gif
Type: image/gif
Size: 2060 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20140411/d7e5aea9/attachment.gif>