[NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

Tue Apr 8 16:36:52 AKDT 2014

I don't agree with your sentence, "Perfect geometry with equal radiuses wound center on the start of the ¼ R, but cannot be confirmed until the ¾ loop radius is judged to be equal. "  

Since the loops are supposed to be equal in size, the start of the 1/4 loop to vertical defines the center of the maneuver.  
That should be on the center pole. And in FAI, the first radius determines the radii for the entire maneuver (5B.8.4) As I said in a previous post, since that is center, then the top 3/4 loop must have the same center.  Just because they do the top wrong, not matching the first radius, does not change the center of the entire maneuver.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: J N Hiller <jnhiller at earthlink.net>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tue, Apr 8, 2014 7:25 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair

I’m one of the folks that sit in the chair and judge this stuff.
Referencing - 2014 FAI Sporting Code - F3 Aerobatics.pdf  - under lines 5B.8.3, entry and exitlines need to be horizontal and of recognizable length. I understand this tomean, not equal in length and no specific length. Both lines could be withinthe boundary of the geometry.
Perfect geometry with equal radiuses wound center on the start of the ¼ R,but cannot be confirmed until the ¾ loop radius is judged to be equal. 
A maneuver having un-equal radiuses would center the maneuver to nopredefined point which will be somewhere within the 3/4 loop.
A larger radius ¾ loop would offset the center towards the entrance sidewhere a smaller radius ¾ loop would offset the center towards the exit sideneither of which will be directly above the start of the ¼ loop. Understandingthis, there can be no pre-stated center reference.
Jim Hiller
Spokane

-----OriginalMessage-----
From:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jas S
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:54PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]>From the Judges Chair

If there wasa roll on the exit, then I think we would be in the 'somewhere' center right? 

Time for dinner, need to replenish... 

On Tue, Apr8, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com> wrote:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-pattern-flying-101/11596737-f-15-figure-9-centerline-question.html
Post #8

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Jas S <justanotherflyr at gmail.com>wrote:

Oh yea,forgot about those lol. Being in a straight line, the 'line' (whole maneuver)is centered with those.
Someone posted a drawing of the 9 on RCU, and while the center isthe whole maneuver works, isn't it going to be the center of the loops/rollwhen done correctly?

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 6:21 PM, Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>wrote:

So in years past we’ve hada 1 ½ snap roll followed by a 2 ½ rolls in the opposite direction.  Whereis the center on that maneuver?  The center is the mid-point between thestart and finish of the maneuver (including straight line in and straight lineout).  There is no definitive middle to these types of maneuvers and so astatement that it is “somewhere in between the 2 ½ rolls” would be accurate aswell – it depends on how fast/slow those rolls were done.

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of John Gayer
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2014 3:03PM
To: General pattern discussion

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]>From the Judges Chair

Derek,
"Somewhere in the 3/4 loop portion" is awfully vague and unjudgeable.I could buy anywhere in the 3/4 loop portion but not somewhere.
The center you are describing would appear to be affected somehow by the entryand exit lines of the maneuver as per your description in the March K-Factor. Idon't see that. This maneuver(figure 9) could be described as a single loopwith a straight vertical line between the first quadrant and the last threequadrants. What rolls occur do not affect that basic shape. That places thecenter of the maneuver at the initial pullup into a quarter loop just as itwould for a simple loop. The apex of the 3/4 loop would also be on thecenterline and so would the return to level flight at the exit.
As far as the straight line entry and exit being somehow offset, I don't seethat either. The entry line ends at the quarter loop pullup and exit linebegins upon completion of the 3/4 loop. Those two points should form a verticalline. I see that as the maneuver centerline as well.
It's certainly true that the aresti shows the wrong center and it is certainlytrue that the sub-committee chair has the last word but he should be using abetter word than "somewhere".
John
On 4/8/20143:22 PM, Derek Koopowitz wrote:

Anthony,

Thisshouldn’t be confusing at all… the center of the maneuver is the middle pointbetween the start and end of the maneuver.  How much more simple can itget?   The statement that the “middle should be somewhere in the ¾loop portion” is correct – depending on the size of the ¾ loop which must matchthe radius of the ¼ loop from horizontal to vertical when the maneuverstarts.  That center portion will change for every pilot as each pilotwill fly it differently.

Yourcomment about “many outside the US” isn’t accurate – if they see it differentlythen they are incorrect.  The clarification I got is straight from the F3sub-committee chair…

-Derek

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Anthony Romano
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 201411:27 AM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]>From the Judges Chair

Wouldlove to see a review of maneuver 13 of the Finals sequence. In the MarchKfactor the center was described as "should be the middle of themaneuver somewhere in the ¾ loop portion." While the manyoutside the US see it that the loop is centered and the Aresti in the latestFAI sporting code show the upline being centered.

A bitconfusing,

Anthony

Date:Tue, 8 Apr 2014 09:28:00 -0700
From: joncarter60 at comcast.net
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] From the Judges Chair
Heyguys - we got an excellent suggestion from the group for last month's articleso I thought I would ask again! Anyone have a burning maneuver or judgingquestion? Just let me know.

Thanks,

JonCarter
JudgingCommittee Chairman

Sentvia the Samsung GALAXY S®4, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

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