[NSRCA-discussion] What a difference a year makes

[Bill's Email]

This is where we have a huge ideological schism. You appear to think 
that science and data have political leanings. I do not. Certainly there 
is biased science, as is evidenced by the tobacco companies that found 
smoking to be harmless. And as a scientist you certainly understand that 
there is always disagreement, but one need to look at the preponderance 
of research and data when drawing a conclusion. In this instance that 
body of evidence comes down squarely in favor of global warming/climate 
change. To attempt to dismiss it on a political or ideological basis is 
less than what I would expect from a trained scientist.

FWIW, I agree about the irony of MTBE, as well as the whole host of 
other fuel oxygenates, causing unforeseen consequences. Yet I draw a 
completely different conclusion. Fuel oxygenates have been unequivocally 
proven to reduce emissions and lessen pollution. To say that the 
decision to implement their use is flawed because of that unforeseen 
consequence to me is not a valid conclusion. Clearly the issue was 
improper containment systems which were addressed in the requirement to 
replace all USTs with either Plasteel or double-walled fiberglass. The 
problem is not MTBE in fuel. The problem is leaking tanks. The new 
regulations have resulted in a drastically reduced number of 
unauthorized releases.

On balance I think it can be argued that the environmental damage caused 
by MTBE is significantly less that the impact of severe air pollution. 
So I guess it is a lesser of two evils argument in a way. However, the 
point remains that what was done is far better than having done nothing. 
Certainly MTBE has caused significant impact, especially to the water 
supplies of particular cities such as Santa Monica. But again, the 
widespread and chronic negative effects of air pollution in my mind 
still justify that decision.

I agree that we must always examine science with a critical eye, but at 
some point the evidence is clear. Where politics comes into it is when 
we try to determine what to do about it. But if we continue to dismiss 
science and make people distrust it based on politics or dogma then I 
think that is a huge disservice to society. As I have said before. I'm 
willing to debate all dat long about what we can or should do about 
global climate change, but if we try to address the issue by pretending 
it is a hoax then I think we are all in trouble.

BTW - ice cores are very cool indeed, FROZEN in fact ;~}

Bill


On 3/20/13 3:23 PM, Dave Lockhart wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> I can only claim to be a geologist by education, having spent my 
> career in the environmental field.  And I am honestly envious of your 
> experience with the Antartic ice cores...very cool stuff.
>
> There is no doubt that specific data sets with specific analyses can 
> show not only increasing temperatures, but even linkage to human 
> activity.  Skeptical Science is well known left leaning website.  We 
> can disagree on the politics.
>
> If I were not rather busy (to say the least) at the moment building a 
> 43" long foamy with contra system at a target weight of 85 grams for 
> ETOC, I'd dig up a number of links that are neutral or contrary to the 
> specific topics you (Bill) noted.
>
> And as I stated before, I'm not advocating all environmental 
> regulations be canned, but the big picture and a balance of data and 
> perspectives should be considered.  I spent much of my professional 
> career cleaning up MTBE, which was forced on the petroleum industry 
> despite warnings it would do more harm than good.  Just one example of 
> a politically driven knee jerk reaction that despite intentions of 
> helping the environment ended up harming the environment.
>
> Dave
>
> *From:*nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org 
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf Of 
> *Bill's Email
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 20, 2013 4:44 PM
> *To:* General pattern discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] What a difference a year makes
>
> Every good rant deserves a rebuttal. Here's mine.
>
> On 3/20/13 1:17 PM, Dave Lockhart wrote:
>
>     The reason for that is some of the same "scientists" that
>     (wrongly) touted global cooling in the 1970s are the same ones now
>     (wrongly) preaching global warming.
>
>
> Which ones are those?? Got any examples?? I think you may have a 
> mistaken impression of the state of scientific thought at the time as 
> well as today. This is a good graphic.
>
> http://www.skepticalscience.com/graphics.php?g=43
>
> The simple change of language from "global warming" to "climate 
> change" should be proof enough that global warming is not happening.
>
> This is not only wrong, but it is kind of a silly "proof". The main 
> reason that the term has been changed was due to fact that many 
> deniers made silly comments like "well it snowed here today, so much 
> for global warming". The more precise term is in fact global climate 
> change. That is being fueled by the increase in average global 
> temperatures which are drastically affecting the climate. It is also 
> worth understanding the difference between climate and weather.
>
>
> However, the politicians and greenies that used "global warming" as 
> justification for bigger government and more government control of the 
> private sector do not want to lose that traction as the fraud of 
> global warming is being disproven.
>
> Again, this so wildly misunderstands the issue that it is hard to know 
> where to start to respond. It is an example of the thinking that Al 
> Gore invented global warming to take away your SUV.
>
>
> So they (the politicians and greenies) are now using "climate change" 
> in a desperate attempt to tie any naturally occurring climate 
> condition to human influence.
>
> No, they are using climate change for the reason I stated above.
>
> Here are a few nice graphics for people to look at.
>
> http://www.skepticalscience.com/graphics.php
>
> I'm sorry, but the inability of any one person (or group of people) to 
> understand something does not mean that the something is wrong. For 
> instance, there are still people today who think the Earth is flat.
>
> Anthropomorphic influence on global warming/climate change is 
> undeniable. I will grant that there is still much debate about what, 
> if anything, we can do about it. But to deny its very existence will 
> render that important debate nearly impossible.
>
> BTW - for those that wonder. I am a geologist by education and 
> profession. Way back in 1983 I helped in some of the early research on 
> the deep ice cores from the Antarctic. This is not a recent science.
>
> End of Rant for me.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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