[NSRCA-discussion] Team financial support

[Koenig, Tom]

Hi All,

Since I have been lurking the last few years-I find this discussion somewhat amusing.

Try living in Australia-and then try to get to  a WC (or any other form of International competition/exposure)!  With all respect, I think some people have a much skewered frame of reference and need a reality check. For us a short haul flight to anywhere might be 16 hours. What about the poor Guys in NZ?

I’m almost sure that we have had a team at just about every world champs, excepting maybe the very first one or two. We go, we go broke, and we get our a$$es kicked every time we go. Every WC we scratch our heads about the judging and interpretations of the rules. Why do we go? Because we love it!!!!

Certainly in our case, the financial case is such that if you can’t afford to go-you don’t ! We might be lucky and get our entry fees paid/sponsored and maybe our SIG has raised a few dollars in raffles, sausage sizzles etc, but the rest you are on your own.

I think it’s fantastic that there are individuals willing to support/help your National Team. Good on you and good luck. The team members I’m sure are very appreciative of those efforts.

Back to lurking!

Tom


From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Scott McHarg
Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2013 12:51 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Team financial support

I think that we forget about other countries and their participation in FAI competition.  Although the U.S. has arguably the most amount of pattern fliers, we don''t look at FAI the same way most others do.  Most countries look at FAI as the goal and the only reason to begin flying pattern.  All lower classes are just stepping stones to get to that level and are there to support FAI.

We are also disassociated with the "World Circuit" simply due to location.  Frequently, other countries nationals are attended by many countries due to the proximity to each other.  My guess is if we compared the other countries of the world and interest in FAI to ours, they'd definitely have a leg up.  Every 2 years is probably not often enough for many other countries or, at the very least, just right.

On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 7:32 PM, Ron Hansen <rcpilot at wowway.com<mailto:rcpilot at wowway.com>> wrote:
The real issue is that the Worlds are held too frequently.

The Olympics are every 4 years.

If you’re going to expect competitors to travel all over the world then the contest shouldn’t be every 2 years.

I’m sure raising $60,000 every 4 years would be that difficult and winning it would be a much bigger deal.  Not suggesting it isn’t already a big deal.

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 8:25 PM
To: Bill Pritchett; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Team financial support

Well, its obvious that the “voluntary†contributions weren’t cutting it so some are beginning to suggest mandatory “fees†of some sort or another on everyone.  I’m sorry that its going to cost $60K to send the crew 1/2 way around the planet for a pattern competition, but they knew that when they signed up for the Team Trials.

Whoever thought to put the Worlds in South Africa needs to have their head examined.

Was McMurdoh Station in the Antarctic booked that week?

From: Bill Pritchett<mailto:billpritch at yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 5:48 PM
To: General pattern discussion<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Team financial support

There are many ways to do this in a voluntary manner, and yet remain in the spirit intended.  Virtually all activities are completely supported from the bottom up - you can even choose to donate $1 on your Fed taxes!
Knowing the people involved here, and many of them very well, it's not about anyone expecting something for nothing.  If there is an expectation, it's that we have something very special and it takes a lot of effort from many to make it work.  Nothing is being demanded, but by sharing the information that Mark has given us on out of pocket expenses for these guys, it would be my hope that lots of participants, fans, and supporters would step up and help out to whatever extent is comfortable.
Bill



On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 3:23 PM, Keith Hoard <klhoard at hotmail.com<mailto:klhoard at hotmail.com>> wrote:
So you feel the need to impose a tax on the lower classes so three guys can travel the world to a pattern contest.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 27, 2013, at 17:17, "Peter Vogel" <vogel.peter at gmail.com<mailto:vogel.peter at gmail.com>> wrote:
In any field of endeavor, it is rare that the people with the talent have the money to support their talent on their own, it's true in sports like ours and most of the Olympic sports, it's true in the arts, it's been true for generations in science and technology (Nicola Tesla, for example, made very little money from his inventions that made several others multimillionaires (and created several companies that are, today, multi-hundred-billion dollar multinational corporations) but was supported in his explorations by several benefactors who were willing to take a risk on him, some wanted no payback, others hoped the next idea would be world changing as his AC generator (a.k.a brushless motor) was and that they'd make money back.  Others are patrons of the arts -- I choose to be a patron of the Aeronautical arts known as Pattern Flying, I hope that I'll be capable of flying advanced before I die, but I see no reason our talented athletes like Andrew, Jason, Brett, and Joseph shouldn't get some help from those less talented but more fortunate :-)

I suspect most of us flying pattern wouldn't notice a few extra $ on an entry fee (about the same cost as a coffee at Starbucks or breakfast at mcdonalds) but it could make a big difference to future Team USA F3A members!

Peter+

On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Keith Hoard <klhoard at hotmail.com<mailto:klhoard at hotmail.com>> wrote:
What makes you think that us lower class guys care to "support" the FAI team?  Some of you make it sound like we owe y'all a free trip.

Keith Hoard
Collierville, TN

On Feb 27, 2013, at 16:28, "Chuck Hochhalter" <cahochhalter at yahoo.com<mailto:cahochhalter at yahoo.com>> wrote:

>
> We could add 5 bucks to every local contest entry and donate that to FAI.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Feb 27, 2013, at 4:25 PM, Archie Stafford <astafford at md.metrocast.net<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net>> wrote:
>
>> Mark,
>>
>> Another option is to adjust the entry fee for all classes. Maybe 25.00 per and all of that goes to the team. Would be easy enough to do.
>>
>> Arch
>>
>>
>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Sâ„¢ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: "Atwood, Mark" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com<mailto:atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>>
>> Date:
>> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Team Selection - was 2013 NATS dates
>>
>>
>> As a side to that…

>>
>> We need to have a serious discussion about the team selection and our "Official" participation levels.  FAI GUYS!!!!  We NEED many more of you to sign up for the team selection event (be it part of the Nats or otherwise in 2014) if we're going to continue to get the same level of funding that we get now from the AMA.   To do that, I think we need to drastically lower the price tag.  The price tag ($170) is reminiscent of holding a separate event and paying for the judges to come for 4 days and judge.   That's no longer an expense burden that the selection contest bears.
>>
>> The AMA has made "participation" a critical point factor in determining the level of financial support that each team receives.   We don't get a lot of money, but they do pay for the World Championship entry fees ($900 /pilot, $500 /team manager, $150 /caller ) which is a lot, and they help with some of the hotel bill.  It's a fraction of what we need, but it's still a big help.  For this year's WC's it's about $7800 of the $60K we'll need.  But if we don't increase our participation, we'll lose it.
>>
>> This past Nats we had 30+ FAI flyers… but less than 10 participated in the team trial….meaning they paid the entry fee.  Admittedly, I was one who did not.  I finished 11th, but that's a far cry from top 3, so spending $170 "Just to participate" didn't seem like a good value proposition.  But if we can lower the cost to say $30, or something reasonable, then I would participate simply to support the team (that's where the entry fee money goes by the way…all of it) especially knowing that it will motivate the AMA to continue their funding.

>>
>> I'll hammer this home more next year when it's more relevant, but thought I'd chime in now :)
>>
>> Please feel free to return to your regularly scheduled conversation.
>>
>>
>> Mark Atwood
>> Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President
>> 5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124
>> Phone: 440.684.3101 x102  |  Direct: 440-229-2502
>> Fax: 440.684.3102
>> mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com><mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com<mailto:mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com>>  |  http://www.paragon-inc.com/<http://www.paragon-inc.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 27, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Budd Engineering <jerry at buddengineering.com<mailto:jerry at buddengineering.com><mailto:jerry at buddengineering.com<mailto:jerry at buddengineering.com>>> wrote:
>>
>> Or a LOT easier because it's gotten so small.  It's occurred to some of us over the past several years that you could hold the US Team Trials at a good local field and still have an as good, if not better, team selection contest as we do now.
>>
>> Incidentally, when I mentioned this to a couple of the AMA people at the show in Ontario last month it was made quite clear that the "powers that be" in AMA have absolutely no interest in allowing the Team Selection contest to ever be held anywhere but at the AMA site in Muncie.  Go Figure.
>>
>> -0
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Feb 27, 2013, at 10:59 AM, "Dave Burton" <burtona at atmc.net<mailto:burtona at atmc.net><mailto:burtona at atmc.net<mailto:burtona at atmc.net>>> wrote:
>>
>> Amen +2
>>
>> As pattern participation continues to shrink the possibility of having the resources to hold the Nats at a different venue gets even more difficult.
>> Dave
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of John Fuqua
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 10:54 AM
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>
>> AMEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:43 AM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>
>> +1
>> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: "mike mueller" <mups1953 at yahoo.com<mailto:mups1953 at yahoo.com><mailto:mups1953 at yahoo.com<mailto:mups1953 at yahoo.com>>>
>> To: "Archie Stafford" <astafford at md.metrocast.net<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net><mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net>>>, "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 9:36:31 AM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>> OK I want to play devil's advocate.
>> What is all this talk about an off site Nats about?
>> Is it that we need to move it around to allow new people to participate? Or is it the changes to the schedule that basically takes away a half day of practice?
>> In my opinion it's not that big of a deal. Moving the Nats off site would be a huge endeavor. Who has the resources, energy and financial where with all to achieve this?
>> I doubt that we could pull it off. Unless a lot of effort was put forth to make it happen.
>> I think the AMA has supported us in a decent manner.
>> Also look at the current BOD of the AMA and you'll see that pattern is well represented with more than our share. We also have Muncie employess who are pattern fliers. We have friends in high places and I think we're doing pretty well.
>> I'm luck enough to go to the Muncie facility for 3 contests every year. I'm amazed at the support we get from the AMA staff every time we go there.
>> Things could be a lot worse. Thanks, Mike Mueller
>>
>> --- On Mon, 2/25/13, Archie Stafford <astafford at md.metrocast.net<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net><mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net>>> wrote:
>>
>> From: Archie Stafford <astafford at md.metrocast.net<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net><mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net<mailto:astafford at md.metrocast.net>>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>
>> Date: Monday, February 25, 2013, 8:44 PM
>> IMAC has been warned. They already lost one day from a few years ago.
>>
>> Also, years ago I would've agreed. Today though the AMA has a lot more park flyers and sport flyers than any other discipline . Most of my club,  with 86 members now flies smaller electrics. Many of the younger kids would rather fly foamies than anything. Pattern, IMAC, and scale don't do anything for them. The younger members are just different. 3D and helis are much more exciting to them. Times have changed.
>>
>> Arch
>>
>>
>> Sent via the Samsung Galaxy Sâ„¢ III, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

>>
>>
>> -------- Original message --------
>> From: Ron Hansen <rcpilot at wowway.com<mailto:rcpilot at wowway.com><mailto:rcpilot at wowway.com<mailto:rcpilot at wowway.com>>>
>> Date:
>> To: vicenterc at comcast.net<mailto:vicenterc at comcast.net>,'General<mailto:vicenterc at comcast.net<mailto:vicenterc at comcast.net>,'General> pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>
>> What about IMAC they have less attendance at the NATS than us.  With their attendance I’m surprised the AMA will even give them a week.  Not that I’m suggesting they don’t deserve a week.  One of the issues I have with the NATS is that Intermediate and Advanced Pilots and those in MASTERS and FAI that don’t make the cut don’t get any more flights than a regular weekend contest.  Perhaps more would attend if we offered every pilot 12 guaranteed flights.  That would make it more likely that the west coasters would make the long trip to Muncie.
>>
>>
>>
>> No one gets hooked on RC by watching someone fly a park flyer.  You get hooked by watching someone go crazy with a heli or an IMAC plane or the graceful flying of a pattern plane or the speed/wow factor of a jet or the roar of a 4 engine B-17.  These are all endeavors that are not associated with the typical AMA member.  If the AMA thinks they can survive without these folks then let them try.  What these groups need to do is stop supporting the AMA with their articles, photos, etc.  They’ll have nothing to draw the attention of new members.  AMA membership will never be what it used to be because kids now a day are so much busier than they used to be and there are so many more thinks competing for their interest.  We need to find a financially viable solution for both the NSRCA and the AMA not to mention all the other SIGS. Without the SIGS there would be no AMA.

>>
>>
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org><mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of vicenterc at comcast.net<mailto:vicenterc at comcast.net><mailto:vicenterc at comcast.net<mailto:vicenterc at comcast.net>>
>> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 6:20 PM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>
>>
>>
>> Guys it is too early in the week to talk about good drinks.  I got to work tomorrow.
>> Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Ronald Van Putte <vanputter at gmail.com<mailto:vanputter at gmail.com><http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vanputter@gmail.com>>
>> Sender: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org><http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org>
>> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2013 16:57:02
>> To: General pattern discussion<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>>
>> Reply-To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org><http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>
>> For those who weren't there, we had several buses take us from the Tullahoma airport about 12 miles to the Jack Daniels' distillery for the "picnic".  On the way back, there was a terrible thunderstorm.  When I mentioned the storm to some attendee the next day, they said, "What thunderstorm?"
>>
>> BTW, what did they call that stuff they served?  Was it Lynchburg Lemonade?  It tasted wonderful and went down so smooth!
>>
>> Ron
>>
>> On Feb 25, 2013, at 4:48 PM, John Fuqua wrote:
>>
>>> At least that part you remember
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org><http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org>
>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org><http://us.mc1247.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org>] On Behalf Of Ronald Van
>>> Putte
>>> Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 4:47 PM
>>> To: General pattern discussion
>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] 2013 NATS dates
>>>
>>> The bus ride back from the Jack Daniel's distillery was memorable!
>>>
>>> Ron
>>>
>>> On Feb 25, 2013, at 4:12 PM, Atwood, Mark wrote:
>>>
>>>> Scott,  I think Ron is correct on this one (biting my tongue as I voice
>>> that!)   Back then the NSRCA had no input what so ever.  Obviously enough
>>> was wrong with the way the AMA ran the event to create a complete boycott of
>>> the nationals in lieu of the NPAC.
>>>>
>>>> Peter, has the nats every
>> _______________________________________________
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