[NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

Wed Aug 21 06:41:29 AKDT 2013

Mike, I’ve been doing this a long time too and I agree with your conclusion. I don’t think I’ve ever been to a contest that the best pilots didn’t win.

We sometimes forget that the objective of judging is to align the pilots up in the correct order. Despite all the flaws in the judging system it seems to me that the correct result always happens.

Dave

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of mike mueller
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 9:09 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

My 50 years of experience in this sport has led me to this conclusion.

 Despite judging issues most of the time the right person wins after all the scores are in.

 A lot of work went into preparation for the Worlds. Judging being a huge part of that. They are the ones who see the flights and are asked to grade them.

 I'd tend to trust them and the system that produced them.

 World Championship competitions are a lot more than a single person and team taking home the trophy. It's a chance for like people from all over the world to share their passion for the sport. No losers in my opinion because everyone gets to experience the spectacle that it is.

Mike Mueller

Customer Services 

 F3AUnlimited

  _____  

From: Vincebrc <vincebrc at gmail.com>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
Cc: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

After having the chance to see some raw scores I concluded that judges are very well calibrated.  If they keep working like that I am sure the best pilots will win.

Vicente "Vince" Bortone

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 20, 2013, at 9:42 PM, Ronald Van Putte <vanputter at gmail.com> wrote:

And then there's the guy with the Vanquish.  But, now that I think about it, it's unique too, because his is the only Vanquish there.  Never mind.......

Ron

On Aug 20, 2013, at 9:31 PM, Chuck Hochhalter wrote:

That would work if they had identical planes,  but you have the ALFERMA, asylur, trigantic, galactic a,   Each plane unique to its pilot.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 20, 2013, at 5:07 PM, Randy Forbus <rforbus at hotmail.com> wrote:

They should hide all the contestants from the judges and let them score the flight and not the flyer

  _____  

From: klhoard at hotmail.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2013 16:03:54 -0500
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

Hmmmm. . . . pedigree.  

So, have the Labra-Doodles score the German Shepherds and so forth . . .

Very interesting. . .

From: rcmaster199 at aol.com 

Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:57 PM

To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

What oftentimes is referred to as Bias is more a Calibration issue that Bias, methinks...

20 judges from 20 countries who have no actual means of practicing the art of Judging in each others' countries, are bound to score very differently from one another, regardless of what the good book sez.

One way to counter the calibration (lack of I should say) issue is to have judges with a known pedigree in a team or a pool, similar to how other sports such as Figure Skating do it. The size of the team could be as many as 50, from a variety of countries, that are tasked to judge the various Finals competitions around the world. FAI pays the bill of course. New blood enters when their pedigree is proven

Regards

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: Derek Koopowitz <derekkoopowitz at gmail.com>
To: 'General pattern discussion' <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 11:39 am
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

It is really hard to get all 20 judges to be biased especially when they come from all over… in the prelims, if one looks at the scores, there are 5 judges scoring and if the range is somewhat narrow on a maneuver then I really doubt there is bias or collusion – they are obviously seeing the same thing.  None of us were there to see what the conditions were like and based on what I’ve heard they were REALLY challenging… 

We flew in 25 mph winds at the Nats this year, pretty much down the runway… and I know how challenging that was… I saw MANY good Masters pilots struggle (one’s that finished in the top 4 in Masters) with the box and a LOT of them were going out the box on the left side.  All the scores that I gave them were well deserved…

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?] On Behalf Of Michael S. Harrison
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 5:21 AM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

biased amateurs,,,,

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Keith Hoard
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2013 5:28 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] World F3A contest

So basically the Team, AMA, sponsors, and various other contributors just spent $50,000 to get scored by a bunch of amateurs.  

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 19, 2013, at 17:07, "George Kennie" <geobet4evr at gmail.com> wrote:

I think that many of these international judges have been uptown most of the day and are familiar with the atmosphere that they are operating in and it's potential to reward or penalize them for significant discrepancies in their scoring awards.

Possible mental bias exercises: " Let's see now, here comes CPLR, (He's GOOD ! ), this is TBL scoring, I know that all the other judges will grade him highly and if I don't want to stick out like a sore thumb I'd better do likewise"

Think that's too harsh? I don't think so. I know that everybody thinks that I'm a nut case, but I don't care. I scored these guys in Twenty Eleven and I saw 5 pilots who outpointed CPLR and I also witnessed the surprise on his face when they proclaimed him the winner. Am I biased? I don't think so. CPLR is a great guy to talk to. He and I had great conversations regarding force arrangements and I found him to be a wonderful down to earth all around terrific person, but this isn't a personality contest. Your mission is to outpoint your opponents and according to my numbers he didn't do that. Of course you can say that I know absolutely zero about judging, but that's an opinion that would take some amount of verification. I say that my scores were not TBL modified and possibly reflected more accurate raw numbers   

I was convinced that the whole international panel could have been classified as individuals who had met poor certification standards, but could it be possible that TBL influenced the outcome in some way? 

Nah!, I think I'm sticking to my original conclusion.

G.

On Mon, Aug 19, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Stuart Chale <schale1 at verizon.net> wrote:

Each Worlds the scoring always always causes me "to raise an eyebrow"  I can't say surprises me because we have seen it before. For most flyers the scores seem lower than we would expect.  Lower than they would receive at the Nats never mind local contests.  Did Joseph really deserve 6's on a half loop turnaround.  Did he have 60 degrees of error or fly a half hexagon?  Are the Judges that much better than the rest of us that they are seeing the errors that we don't?   Or are they upping the bar with an unwritten rule ( 1 point / 5 degrees etc) .  Any 10's given out?
I know the top fliers are difficult to differentiate until the finals and unknowns and usually it works out that the best flyer wins, I just like to see the same criteria used at all contests.

Or maybe I am not as good a judge as I think :)

Stuart C.

_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

  _____  

_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20130821/fe0d0d30/attachment.html>