[NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new FAIrules

Tue Jan 31 17:33:37 AKST 2012

"I'm sure he was just trying to give meaning to a poorly writen criteria."

In part, I think that is correct.  A major aspect of what Ramel was
attempting to convey to the judges was that a maneuver schedule containing a
variety of maneuvers might be best presented using a variety of styles, and
IF the style change(s) were warranted by a specific maneuver(s) to preserve
the technical aspects of that maneuver(s), there should be no style (s+g)
downgrade.  Simplest (fictional) example I can give would be a maneuver such
as a downline with an 8 point roll (more correctly, 8 consecutive 1/8
rolls).  To avoid meeting terra firma, the roll rates will be fast, and
hesitations short (compared to roll rates and hesitations elsewhere in the
flight), and there will be no s+g downgrade (for the style change).

So, in essence, IF a style change occurs, it can be downgraded under the
auspices of s+g..unless the style change was necessitated by the specific
maneuver (another judgment that must be made).

Regards,

Dave

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jon Lowe
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 11:18 AM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to
new FAIrules

It would appear that the FAI is going down the same road as IMAC, with
IMAC's subjective "airspace control" factor.  The smoothness and
gracefulness 25% gives a judge a non-objective way to give a downgrade of 2
to 3 points.  Since there is no scoring criteria for it that I could find,
other than Michael Ramel's instructions to the judges at the WC, I'm not
sure what we do with it.  I would think that his instructions would have
been protestable, if anyone had wanted to go down that path, since I'm
unaware of any official FAI rule interpretation saying, for example, that
constant speed is a part of smoothness and gracefulness.  I'm sure he was
just trying to give meaning to a poorly writen criteria.

Very sorry to see the FAI going this way.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Atwood <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tue, Jan 31, 2012 9:49 am
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to
new FAIrules

Dave, the answer, by your own math, is that a geometrically perfect maneuver
can't be beaten purely by other criteria.   With geometry making up 50% of
the score, no amount of smoothness can be valued MORE than precision.   

I could also argue that a geometrically "perfect" maneuver would always have
at least some level of gracefulness based on that perfect geometry.  They're
not completely independent.  

Unfortunately S&G is completely subjective, and as analytical people, we're
not too keen on subjectivity.  But that's the nature of the sport.  It's
perceived precision, not measured.    Vertical lines at the end of the box
don't need to BE vertical, they need to LOOK vertical, etc.   

If we want purely objective scoring... look to racing.  Go fast, bank left,
pull.   

Mark Atwood

Paragon Consulting, Inc.  |  President

5885 Landerbrook Drive Suite 130, Cleveland Ohio, 44124 

Phone: 440.684.3101 x102  |  Fax: 440.684.3102

mark.atwood at paragon-inc.com  |  www.paragon-inc.com
<http://www.paragon-inc.com/> 

On Jan 31, 2012, at 10:37 AM, DaveL322 at comcast.net wrote:

There has never been guidance for s+g downgrades in AMA or FAI.....which is
why I have always advocated s+g should be eliminated from the judging
criteria.  Of course if I am mistaken about the goal of pattern being
precision aerobatics, then maybe s+g should be the only criteria.

I've never gotten an answer to this question.  How can a geometrically
perfect maneuver be outscored by a geometrically flawed maneuver?  Of course
with the new FAI scoring.....it would seem that geometrically perfect
maneuver might only be scored a 5.

Regards,

Dave

Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!

----- Reply message -----
From: "Ronald Van Putte" <vanputte at cox.net>
Date: Tue, Jan 31, 2012 09:49
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: Another discussion topic relating to new
FAIrules
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>

After thinking about this further, I wonder how the change in  ranking
affects anything.  Positioning has specific downgrades (2 point downgrade
for each 1/4 of the maneuver off center).  However, I am unaware of any
specific downgrades for smoothness and gracefulness. 

Ron Van Putte

Begin forwarded message:

From: Ronald Van Putte <vanputte at cox.net>

Date: January 31, 2012 8:24:56 AM CST

To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new
FAIrules

Reply-To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>

That's interesting.  I know #2. and #3. were in reverse order before.  I
don't remember a rules change vote on this. 

Ron Van Putte

On Jan 31, 2012, at 8:19 AM, Bob Kane wrote:

FWIW, this is identical to to the ranking in the AMA Competition
regulations:

>From the current AMA document (RCA-12):

1. Precision of the maneuver.

2. Smoothness and gracefulness of the maneuver. 

3. Positioning or display of the maneuver.

4. Size or dimensions of the maneuver relative to the maneuvering area,
distance from the judges, and other maneuvers in the flight. 

The above criteria are listed in order of importance; however, all of them
must be met for a maneuver to be rated perfect. 

Bob Kane getterflash at yahoo.com

From: J N Hiller <jnhiller at earthlink.net>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2012 3:51 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new
FAIrules

I would have thought positioning rated a higher precision aerobatics.
Smoothness and gracefulness is polish.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?> ]On Behalf Of
tocdon at netscape.net
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2012 6:06 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Another discussion topic relating to new
FAIrules

This will keep the list going (and the discussions too).  I recall Michael
Ramel clearly discussing the future of the rules during the judges training
at the World Championships at Muncie.  This was relating to smoothness and
gracefulness being directly related to constant speed.  The following
reflects what he discussed, as cited on page 35, and effect the way a score
is awarded:

Geometry:  50%

Smoothness and Gracefulness: 25%

Position of maneuver: 12.5%

Size of maneuver: 12.5%

Proportion of the maneuver outside the (box) in addition to above.

The specific, objective criteria used to judge smoothness and gracefulness
includes, "maintaining constant speed throughout various maneuver
components, like climbing and decending sections..."

Also the sentence about radii being very loose or very tight, even if equal
size within a maneuver, are grounds for downgrade of smoothness and
gracefulness.

Cheers,

Don

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