[NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012

Mon Dec 12 15:31:52 AKST 2011

Lets also resurrect no scored takeoffs and landings while we are at it
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 5:57 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012

I guess it's officially Winter now! Pattern weight rule discussion has
started. Lol.

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Burton
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 6:20 PM
To: 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012

Arch, I got planes already. Buying another one that is "easier" to make
weight will cost several times the $400.00 it would cost in parts to reduce
the weight of the planes I have.

I'm with Mike on this one, The rule just makes no sense. I very much
disagree with you, Dave L. and others that rule changes allowing larger
planes and engines were the cause of the cost increases. It was the change
to turn around sequences that was the root cause. The TA sequences tasks
demanded the  airplane changes we've seen. The 5 Kg weight rule is just a
left over airplane size limiting  deal from the 1930's and serves no purpose
today. The 2 M rule is the size limiting rule today.

BTY, you could chose to run the contest the way it has been done in the
past. Weigh and measure only the finalist. Let the rest of us who won't be
in the finals go with slightly overweight planes if we want, have fun,
compete the best we can, provide manpower to help judge, attend the various
social outings,  and minimize the out of pocket cost for us.

Dave

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Archie
Stafford
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 7:02 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012

Dave,

I understand and I am sorry you feel that way. I do have to disagree though.
I put together the Extreme Flight Vanquish with everything including a set
of batteries for less than 1400 dollars and it comfortably made weight.
There are planes out there that make weight with no problems without
spending a fortune.  I also didn't have any issues making weight with my
Wind S Pro, and that was with not doing anything special.  I think there are
planes available that will easily make weight.  My plan though as I told you
earlier this year that we are going to run a rule book contest.  I want to
make sure to give everyone ample time to get prepared and have time to weigh
their planes.  For those who are not worried about where they place, they
still have the option to fly.  Their rounds will just be zeroed when they do
not pass weight.  This does not exclude anyone from flying.

Archie

On 12/12/11 4:54 PM, "Dave Burton" <burtona at atmc.net> wrote:

Ditto, my thoughts too! 
Yes, It's easy to make weight - just spend more money!  Spending another
$400.00 to buy the light weight stuff to lose the 4 oz. I need on my plane
means the cost of going to the NATS is more than what it's worth. I probably
won't be there so weighing every flight  won't affect me.
Dave

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Michael S.
Harrison
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 4:19 PM
To: astafford at md.metrocast.net; 'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012

I suppose you have all heard my objections to  and the pointless nature of
the existing weight limit.  In the interest of promoting the sport and the
nationals I would encourage a tolerance level of 8 ounces and weigh the
planes at the beginning of the contest and forget about it until finals day.
On that day weigh the finalists and do the contest.  This unfortunately has
turned into a weight contest-not a flying contest.  I have heard all the
arguments about how easy it is to make weight and it is easy to build light
aircraft.blah, blah blah.,  well, I disagree and the weight rule is
pointless.  It does not affect anything to have a little heavier aircraft,
and in most instances is much safer to have aircraft that are a little
heavier but much stronger ,thus much safer.  

As event director, you can implement mods to the rules for the above
reasons-promote the sport, safety and whatever else.  

I very much support FAI, but they pretty much  have blown us off as far as
input but they sure don't blow off our serious financial support.  I
disagree with them on this point and I have discussed the issue with a few
of them including the head of CIAM and they gave me absolutely no compelling
argument for the restrictive weight rule.

I would encourage you minimize your manpower usage in that area.  I would
never want that job.
M2c
Mike 

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Archie
Stafford
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 1:39 PM
To: General pattern discussion; General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012

Ron,

I certainly understand there are challenges, and I'm also almost certain
that these challenges can be worked through, especially if we maybe only end
up weighing once per day or something.  We are working on the logistics now
and will have a better plan after the first of the year.  The rules will be
followed though and after calibrating the scales there will not be
allowances above the rules. If an airplane is weighed and comes in heavy, we
will recalibrate the scales and verify they were correct.  My gut feeling is
that not many planes will have a problem and constant recalibration will not
be necessary.   We may find this is not necessarily the case, but I would be
surprised if it is as I have played with the scales I have and after many
weights of differing amounts the calibration seems to hold true.  My plan is
after a flight the pilot brings the plane back to a tent area, much like the
worlds and the plane will be weighed there.  If the plane is under weight,
nothing else happens and his scores will be submitted to the score keeper.
If the plane is over weight the site director will come inside the tent area
and verify the over weight plane.  Obviously in this case the scales would
be recalibrated.  If the plane is still overweight the pilot will receive a
zero score for that round, but will be allowed to fly his next round.  A
pilot could if he wanted fail every weight check, and just get no scores for
those rounds.  I have no doubt there will be growing pains involved, but my
hope is that if pilots know 8 months in advance that they will be weighed
that they will take the steps necessary to ensure the aircraft is under
weight prior to arriving in Muncie.  I understand logistically this may pose
some problems, but we do have quite a bit of man power available with
intermediate pilots now being part of the judging pool.  Granted, they would
not be able to do this during the time they are flying, but then we would
only need 3 additional people per day, which we can take from the other
classes.  Having spoken to many people involved, we don't see that there is
any reason why we should not be able to do this with adequate planning.  I
have verified that we have access to the tents that were used at the worlds
and one will be setup at each location on Sunday before the pilots meeting
to allow pilots to verify the weight of their aircraft.   If a pilot chooses
not to take advantage of this opportunity it is on them.  

Arch

On Mon 12/12/11 1:52 PM , Ronald Van Putte <vanputte at cox.net> wrote:

All I can say about weighing every airplane at processing and maybe after
every flight is:  good luck. 

John Fuqua and I did all the weighing at the at the F3A WC last year.  There
were 82 contestants and many had two airplanes.  We weighed every one of
them at processing.  That's a lot of weighing.  Then, we weighed every
electric-powered airplane after every flight.  In addition, we weighed the
glow-powered airplanes whose owners were unlucky to pull the "wrong" ball
after each flight.  We worked from the prelims through the finals and
neither of us want to do it again. 

We were particularly unhappy that a weight tolerance was given, even though
we provided accurate scales and calibration weights with certification
papers.  What was done appeared to be counter to F3A rules.  I understand
why a weight tolerance will be given to Intermediate pilots, but hope the
the 5000 gram limit will apply to all the rest of the competitors.

Ron Van Putte

On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Archie Stafford wrote:

Hello everyone. I trust that everyone is anxiously awaiting a shiny new
pattern  <http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=7016>
<http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=7016>  plane or
gizmo arriving at Christmas this year. I realize we are a ways away from the
NATS 2012, but its never too early to start communicating. The official
entry forms are now online at the following link.
http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx
<http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx>
<http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx>  Entry forms will
still be mailed to those who attended last year, but for anyone wishing to
get a jump on things and get registered now you can download the entry form
and send them in. I plan
<http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=5582>
<http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=5582>  to start
putting out monthly status updates after the first of the year so that
everyone knows where things stand. I have a great group of people who have
volunteered to help and everything is coming together very nicely. 

A few things worth mentionings are that the banquet will be held the night
<http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=6133>
<http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=6133>  before the
finals this year. It will be held on site at the banquet area at the museum
and will be catered. Final catering details have not been finalized yet. At
this banquet, the Masters and FAI finalists will be announced and flight
orders drawn. This is possible this year due to the rule change that there
will no longer be an unknowns meeting per the new FAI rules. The unknowns
will be created by the Event Director and handed out to the finalists at the
banquet. This will also allow the Intermediate and Advanced winners to be
announced in front of the entire group. 

Another item to be aware of is that EVERY airplane will be weighed this
year. We are still finalizing plans on the most efficient way to do this,
but be aware that every airplane will be weighed this year and it will be
after a flight. Ideally they will be weighed after every flight, but at
least once a day is my goal. We learned a lot from how it was done at the
worlds last year and this should not be difficult to do as we have
intermediate pilots who no longer work transmitter impound that we can use
as well as some other people involved. As I said, the plans are not
finalized, but we are working very hard on them and after the first of the
year I will let everyone know what we have come up with as a final plan. My
goal is to stay in contact with everyone so that no one can say they didn't
know. 

One other important piece of information are the cut off deadlines. They
will be strictly enforced. They have been moved slightly closer to the
actual start of the NATS, but no entries after the final deadline will be
accepted. No exceptions. One change though is that up until the final cut
off we will be able to issue refunds. We will not be able to issue the
refund from the AMA part of the entry fee, but the NSRCA part of the fee
will be refunded. 

Looking forward to seeing everyone in Muncie in July. 

Please limit discussions to useful information regarding this thread. Also,
if you have a complaint on how things have been done, I am more than open to
listen, but please have ideas on how to correct these issues. 

Archie Stafford 
2012 Pattern NATS ED 
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