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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Lets also resurrect no scored takeoffs and landings while we are at it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave Burton<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 12, 2011 5:57 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I guess it’s officially Winter now! Pattern weight rule discussion has started. Lol.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave Burton<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 12, 2011 6:20 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'General pattern discussion'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Arch, I got planes already. Buying another one that is “easier” to make weight will cost several times the $400.00 it would cost in parts to reduce the weight of the planes I have.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I’m with Mike on this one, The rule just makes no sense. I very much disagree with you, Dave L. and others that rule changes allowing larger planes and engines were the cause of the cost increases. It was the change to turn around sequences that was the root cause. The TA sequences tasks demanded the airplane changes we’ve seen. The 5 Kg weight rule is just a left over airplane size limiting deal from the 1930’s and serves no purpose today. The 2 M rule is the size limiting rule today.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>BTY, you could chose to run the contest the way it has been done in the past. Weigh and measure only the finalist. Let the rest of us who won’t be in the finals go with slightly overweight planes if we want, have fun, compete the best we can, provide manpower to help judge, attend the various social outings, and minimize the out of pocket cost for us.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dave<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Archie Stafford<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 12, 2011 7:02 PM<br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Dave,<br><br>I understand and I am sorry you feel that way. I do have to disagree though. I put together the Extreme Flight Vanquish with everything including a set of batteries for less than 1400 dollars and it comfortably made weight. There are planes out there that make weight with no problems without spending a fortune. I also didn’t have any issues making weight with my Wind S Pro, and that was with not doing anything special. I think there are planes available that will easily make weight. My plan though as I told you earlier this year that we are going to run a rule book contest. I want to make sure to give everyone ample time to get prepared and have time to weigh their planes. For those who are not worried about where they place, they still have the option to fly. Their rounds will just be zeroed when they do not pass weight. This does not exclude anyone from flying.<br><br>Archie<br><br><br>On 12/12/11 4:54 PM, "Dave Burton" <<a href="mailto:burtona@atmc.net">burtona@atmc.net</a>> wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Ditto, my thoughts too! <br>Yes, It’s easy to make weight – just spend more money! Spending another $400.00 to buy the light weight stuff to lose the 4 oz. I need on my plane means the cost of going to the NATS is more than what it’s worth. I probably won’t be there so weighing every flight won’t affect me.<br>Dave<br> <br></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br></span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael S. Harrison<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 12, 2011 4:19 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:astafford@md.metrocast.net">astafford@md.metrocast.net</a>; 'General pattern discussion'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012<br></span><br><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I suppose you have all heard my objections to and the pointless nature of the existing weight limit. In the interest of promoting the sport and the nationals I would encourage a tolerance level of 8 ounces and weigh the planes at the beginning of the contest and forget about it until finals day. On that day weigh the finalists and do the contest. This unfortunately has turned into a weight contest-not a flying contest. I have heard all the arguments about how easy it is to make weight and it is easy to build light aircraft…blah, blah blah., well, I disagree and the weight rule is pointless. It does not affect anything to have a little heavier aircraft, and in most instances is much safer to have aircraft that are a little heavier but much stronger ,thus much safer. <br> <br>As event director, you can implement mods to the rules for the above reasons-promote the sport, safety and whatever else. <br> <br>I very much support FAI, but they pretty much have blown us off as far as input but they sure don’t blow off our serious financial support. I disagree with them on this point and I have discussed the issue with a few of them including the head of CIAM and they gave me absolutely no compelling argument for the restrictive weight rule.<br> <br>I would encourage you minimize your manpower usage in that area. I would never want that job.<br>M2c<br>Mike <br> <br></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br></span><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a> [<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]</a> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Archie Stafford<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 12, 2011 1:39 PM<br><b>To:</b> General pattern discussion; General pattern discussion<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] NATS 2012<br></span><br>Ron,<br><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br></span>I certainly understand there are challenges, and I'm also almost certain that these challenges can be worked through, especially if we maybe only end up weighing once per day or something. We are working on the logistics now and will have a better plan after the first of the year. The rules will be followed though and after calibrating the scales there will not be allowances above the rules. If an airplane is weighed and comes in heavy, we will recalibrate the scales and verify they were correct. My gut feeling is that not many planes will have a problem and constant recalibration will not be necessary. We may find this is not necessarily the case, but I would be surprised if it is as I have played with the scales I have and after many weights of differing amounts the calibration seems to hold true. My plan is after a flight the pilot brings the plane back to a tent area, much like the worlds and the plane will be weighed there. If the plane is under weight, nothing else happens and his scores will be submitted to the score keeper. If the plane is over weight the site director will come inside the tent area and verify the over weight plane. Obviously in this case the scales would be recalibrated. If the plane is still overweight the pilot will receive a zero score for that round, but will be allowed to fly his next round. A pilot could if he wanted fail every weight check, and just get no scores for those rounds. I have no doubt there will be growing pains involved, but my hope is that if pilots know 8 months in advance that they will be weighed that they will take the steps necessary to ensure the aircraft is under weight prior to arriving in Muncie. I understand logistically this may pose some problems, but we do have quite a bit of man power available with intermediate pilots now being part of the judging pool. Granted, they would not be able to do this during the time they are flying, but then we would only need 3 additional people per day, which we can take from the other classes. Having spoken to many people involved, we don't see that there is any reason why we should not be able to do this with adequate planning. I have verified that we have access to the tents that were used at the worlds and one will be setup at each location on Sunday before the pilots meeting to allow pilots to verify the weight of their aircraft. If a pilot chooses not to take advantage of this opportunity it is on them. <br><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br></span>Arch<br><br><br>On Mon 12/12/11 1:52 PM , Ronald Van Putte <<a href="mailto:vanputte@cox.net">vanputte@cox.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br></span>All I can say about weighing every airplane at processing and maybe after every flight is: good luck. <br><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br></span><br><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br></span>John Fuqua and I did all the weighing at the at the F3A WC last year. There were 82 contestants and many had two airplanes. We weighed every one of them at processing. That's a lot of weighing. Then, we weighed every electric-powered airplane after every flight. In addition, we weighed the glow-powered airplanes whose owners were unlucky to pull the "wrong" ball after each flight. We worked from the prelims through the finals and neither of us want to do it again. <br><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br></span><br><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br></span>We were particularly unhappy that a weight tolerance was given, even though we provided accurate scales and calibration weights with certification papers. What was done appeared to be counter to F3A rules. I understand why a weight tolerance will be given to Intermediate pilots, but hope the the 5000 gram limit will apply to all the rest of the competitors.<br><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br></span><br><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br></span>Ron Van Putte<br><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br></span><br><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><br></span>On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:30 PM, Archie Stafford wrote:<br> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Hello everyone. I trust that everyone is anxiously awaiting a shiny new pattern <a href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=7016"><http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=7016></a> plane or gizmo arriving at Christmas this year. I realize we are a ways away from the NATS 2012, but its never too early to start communicating. The official entry forms are now online at the following link. <span style='color:#00265E'><a href="http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx">http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx</a></span> <a href="http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx"><http://www.modelaircraft.org/events/nats/entryforms.aspx></a> Entry forms will still be mailed to those who attended last year, but for anyone wishing to get a jump on things and get registered now you can download the entry form and send them in. I plan <a href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=5582"><http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=5582></a> to start putting out monthly status updates after the first of the year so that everyone knows where things stand. I have a great group of people who have volunteered to help and everything is coming together very nicely. <br><br>A few things worth mentionings are that the banquet will be held the night <a href="http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=6133"><http://www.rcuniverse.com/buynow/keywordclick.cfm?bid_id=6133></a> before the finals this year. It will be held on site at the banquet area at the museum and will be catered. Final catering details have not been finalized yet. At this banquet, the Masters and FAI finalists will be announced and flight orders drawn. This is possible this year due to the rule change that there will no longer be an unknowns meeting per the new FAI rules. The unknowns will be created by the Event Director and handed out to the finalists at the banquet. This will also allow the Intermediate and Advanced winners to be announced in front of the entire group. <br><br>Another item to be aware of is that EVERY airplane will be weighed this year. We are still finalizing plans on the most efficient way to do this, but be aware that every airplane will be weighed this year and it will be after a flight. Ideally they will be weighed after every flight, but at least once a day is my goal. We learned a lot from how it was done at the worlds last year and this should not be difficult to do as we have intermediate pilots who no longer work transmitter impound that we can use as well as some other people involved. As I said, the plans are not finalized, but we are working very hard on them and after the first of the year I will let everyone know what we have come up with as a final plan. My goal is to stay in contact with everyone so that no one can say they didn't know. <br><br>One other important piece of information are the cut off deadlines. They will be strictly enforced. They have been moved slightly closer to the actual start of the NATS, but no entries after the final deadline will be accepted. No exceptions. One change though is that up until the final cut off we will be able to issue refunds. We will not be able to issue the refund from the AMA part of the entry fee, but the NSRCA part of the fee will be refunded. <br><br>Looking forward to seeing everyone in Muncie in July. <br><br>Please limit discussions to useful information regarding this thread. Also, if you have a complaint on how things have been done, I am more than open to listen, but please have ideas on how to correct these issues. <br><br>Archie Stafford <br>2012 Pattern NATS ED <br>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a> <javascript:top.opencompose('NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org','','','')> <br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br> <span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><hr size=3 width="95%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas'>_______________________________________________<br>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br><a href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</a><br><a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>