[NSRCA-discussion] FW: Proposed NSRCA sequences for2011 andbeyond

Fri Sep 24 17:22:57 AKDT 2010

I believe we should really look at the Aussie system.

I'm on the fence on Masters having to move to FAI.

The bad thing about advancing through the system quickly is once in Masters you've nowhere to go. I've seen guys move up nearly every year hit Masters and then quit, over and over and over again. I can think of a dozen. 

Some went to IMAC (Hardens, Bill and Herbie), some to SPA (Darrell Kampschror), some Jets (Lewis Patton) some to Heli's (Mann brothers) never to be heard from again.

Is there a perfect fix? Nope, never will be either.

Doesn't mean we don't try or debate endlessly either.

As DaveL said once most guys just say "Tell me what to fly and I'll show up"

Tim

--- On Fri, 9/24/10, John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net> wrote:

From: John Gayer <jgghome at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: Proposed NSRCA sequences for2011 andbeyond
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Friday, September 24, 2010, 8:00 PM

Dave,

 With regard to the Aussie system, it is completely possible to remain in a lower class forever. If you are not improving but only maintaining a current skill level due to lack of time or other reasons, you will probably stagnate in a class.
When I was there, expert and masters both flew the current F3A pattern. I gather that has changed somewhat now but 20 years ago it was true. I was in the expert class and due to work pressures, etc I did not have the time(and perhaps the ability) to gain promotional points to Masters(F3A), even with coaching from Peter Goldsmith(I still have a Lotus in my workshop). 
I believe that most of that expert group has since made it to Masters(F3A). Gavin Dark and Brian McFarlane come to mind but at that time we were definitely mired in Expert without any promotion points in sight. Would it be possible to game the system to stay in a class? Yes, I suppose it would be but all I saw was a lot of eagerness to reach the next level. 

I have no problem with Masters being a destination class. As I have stated a number of times, I consider it improper for Masters to be the only class that is not required to advance to the next level. I've tried to make the point that while I have flown in higher classes(usually not well) I am very happy and competitive in Advanced, at least for the time being.
There are two ways to fix the advancement issue:

Require Masters to advance to the F3A pattern
Offer all the other classes the opportunity to self-regulate their advancement as well. I've already suggested one method of doing this in an earlier post.
Every argument I've heard for not requiring Masters to advance makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why the Masters pilots think these arguments apply only to them. 
Seems to me that the Masters pilots should get on board the second solution....

John

On 9/24/2010 4:43 PM, Dave wrote: 

John,

Please correct me if I am wrong –

With regard to the Aussie advancement system, is it not possible for a pilot to stay in a mid level class forever?  Never achieving promotional points and never dropping below minimums?

You point out that more complex maneuvers and winning at higher levels are drivers for pilots to improve and advance, but they are not the only drivers.  Many pilots practice pattern alone and never compete, because they are singularly driving themselves to a higher level.  There is a limit to competitive drive….and a limit to personal drive.  I’d suggest you have more of both than most, and that is not a bad thing – for you.

I think the point that you are missing yourself, or not seeing as valued by others is that many are happy at a given level, and don’t want to be pushed further.  They have climbed as far as they want to, have resources for, are comfortable with, etc.  If they are pushed further unwillingly, they quite possibly will leave the event.  

Regards,

Dave Lockhart

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Gayer
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 5:19 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: Proposed NSRCA sequences for2011 andbeyond

Glen,

If you don't want to be forced to move to FAI, then you must accept that there are those in other classes who do not wish to advance to the next class either. Peer pressure and the challenge of learning more complex maneuvers and doing better at a higher level are expected to work for Sportsman through Advanced but not for Masters? 

While F3A maneuvers are controlled by the FAI, there is nothing international about doing a loop with an integrated  8 point. It is, however, a challenge to do well. Why are so many of the Masters flyers disinterested in new challenges, new maneuvers, new competition? These are the things that drove them to excel in the lower classes and in Masters and then it all stops?

I would think that winning the NATS in any class would lead one to look around and say "where's the next hill to climb?"

I firmly believe there needs to be some changes made in the advancement process. It should be the same across the board for all classes including Masters.
In the past I have suggested abolishing the current advancement rules and replacing it with the following:

A competitor will select the class to be flown during the calendar year. This selected class may be any higher class or the next lower class than that flown in the previous calendar year. The set of classes referred to is 401-404 and 406.

This would at least make advancement requirements consistent for all participants and is very easy to enforce.

John Gayer
AMA 75102
NSRCA 632
ex Sportsman, Advanced, Expert. Master, F3A and now thoroughly challenged by Advanced(again)

On 9/24/2010 2:22 PM, Glen Watson wrote: 
...I probably meet Dave's description of a Masters' pilot who chooses not to compete in an International class.  There are many personal reason why this is the case.  i.e. desire, age, dollars, time etc.

It's amazing to me the same issues are raised year-to-year about changing the current establishment (AMA rules) to meet one's needs.   Instead of trying to force someone like me to move-on to FAI why can't the pilots who view someone like me as a potential sandbagger work a bit harder in their respective class to become as competitive as they can.  I do not mean to come across arrogant, just voicing my opinion regarding attitude's I've  witness from the pattern community.  

I recognize the level of time, money and commitment it takes to achieve excellence.  That's why I enjoy the sport of pattern, it's the challenge of being competitive within the stated rules.

~Glen Watson
AMA 136878
NSRCA 2293

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 11:32 AM
To: ' General pattern discussion '
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 andbeyond
John,

I’m not quite sure how to respond as I think my commentary made perfect sense.

I’ll try it another way –

The US has a substantial number of pilots that do not aspire to international competition.  Many Masters pilots have expressed the opinion that if they were required to fly a more difficult schedule, or fly multiple schedules, they would drop out of the event.  So why force them into a class that contains elements they clearly don’t want, and for which they have virtually no input or control?  How does chasing people out of the event benefit pattern in the US ?

With respect to “ALL the lower classes and maneuvers are selected by someone else(the sequence committee)”

I couldn’t disagree more.  The Seq Com has always been comprised of pilots from all classes, and the direction taken by the Seq Com has always been based on survey results and feedback from the masses.  “Someone else” is us, just like the judges are us.

Regards,

Dave Lockhart

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Gayer
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 12:09 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FW: Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond

That makes no sense. Every other country has resolved the issue of having their own internal classes and then finally advancing their best pilots to F3A. Just because the maneuvers are selected by an international committee on which we are represented is not a reason to preclude F3A from an advancement process. We only have Turnaround pattern in this country because the FAI led the way and we decided to follow rather than go the way of the dodo.
>From my point of view, ALL the lower classes and maneuvers are selected by someone else(the sequence committee). For F3A that committe is international. So what?

John Gayer
NSRCA 632

On 9/24/2010 8:36 AM, Dave wrote: 
I believe the practical perspective is that FAI-F3A is an AMA class, but it does not run in accordance with AMA rules (except where FAI is silent), and AMA has virtually no control over F3A.  Given AMA has no control over F3A, that is a key point in not requiring advancement to F3A from Masters.

Regards,

Dave Lockhart

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Gene Maurice
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 8:18 AM
To: ' General pattern discussion '
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond

Sorry, FAI is an AMA class, 406,  it’s only that the Sporting Code supersedes, doesn’t replace, the AMA rule book and the exemption from advancement. >From the 2009-2010 rule book:

RADIO CONTROL PATTERN 
For events 401, 402, 403, 404, 406. 

7. Pattern event classes: The Pattern event shall
be divided into five (5) classes. The first four (4
shall (in order of increasing difficulty) be 
referred to as Sportsman, Intermediate, 
Advanced, and Masters. The fifth class shall be 
referred to as the FAI class. The Sportsman class
is supplemental (see Supplemental and 
Provisional Rules, page 2). Competitors must be
advised prior to the start of the contest of any 
planned deviations from standard AMA rules 
pertaining to the events they have entered. 

19. FAI Pattern Maneuvers: The FAI class 
shall fly according to the current FAI RC 
Aerobatics (F3A) rules. The noise limit shall be 
the current noise limit used in AMA competition 
for classes 401-404, except in the case of a USA 
Team Selection contest, where the noise limit 
shall be the current FAI noise rule. The builder-
of-the-model rule, if any, shall not be enforced. 
The AMA Competition Regulations will be 
applied when the FAI Sporting Code is silent on, 
or does not provide guidance concerning the 
conduct or rules of the FAI - F3A events. 

  8.2.5: There is no mandatory 
advancement into FAI from the Masters class. 
Contestants may enter their current AMA class 
or the FAI class at any contest but not both.

Gene Maurice
gene.maurice at sgmservice.com
Dallas, GA
AMA 3408
NSRCA 877
PACSS.sgmservice.com

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Harmon
Sent: Friday, September 24, 2010 12:19 AM
To: ' General pattern discussion '
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond

Hi Vince….well….FAI/F3A is not an AMA class…..Masters and below ARE….so…FAI/F3A cannot be a destination class for an AMA event.

Dave Harmon
NSRCA 586
K6XYZ[at]sbcglobal[dot]net
Sperry, Ok.

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Vicente "Vince" Bortone
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 9:24 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond

I think that making FAI-F3A destination class will be easier natural solution.  How we are going to organize local contests having one additional class?

Vicente "Vince" Bortone

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Harmon" <k6xyz at sbcglobal.net>
To: " General pattern discussion " <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2010 7:12:00 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Proposed NSRCA sequences for 2011 and beyond
>> time because the new class would 
be populated from the other classes….like Masters and Intermediate.<<<
arrrrgghhh……I meant Advanced……another class between Advanced and Masters.
Sorry….

Dave Harmon
NSRCA 586
K6XYZ[at]sbcglobal[dot]net
Sperry, Ok.
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