[NSRCA-discussion] Max volts

Wed Mar 3 20:53:10 AKST 2010

The OS EFI looked at throttle position (taken from the throttle servo signal
pulse width), RPM, and temperature.  I disconnected the temp sensor and
found it made ZERO difference in running characteristics under normal
conditions.  Others reported the engine would not even start without the
temp sensor connected.  My understanding is that EFI computer unit basically
compared throttle position to RPM and adjusted the mixture to reduce
rich/lean spots as the engine came on/off the pipe.

The “biggest lie” about electrics is that they always produce the same
amount of power.  Phooey.  Ambient temperature has a big influence.

So far as the ESC feature I would like to have
..it is not a governor like
the governor mode from the heli software or the governor mode Dean has
worked with for CL Stunt.  And I certainly don’t want my electric setup to
emulate an IC (if I did, I’d just fly IC).  What the feature is, is a way to
“clip” peak power at the beginning of the discharge cycle to maintain a
constant peak power (if/when requested by advancing the throttle stick to
100%) and constant part throttle power.  In the instance of a fresh battery
being capable of 6500 RPM, it might be limited to 6100 RPM
..and ½ throttle
would be 4500 RPM (for instance).  As the battery is discharged, it might
only be capable of 6200 RPM, but full throttle would remain 6100 RPM, and ½
throttle would remain 4500 RPM.  Think of it more as the way modern TX
output strength is controlled

.whether the TX battery is freshly charged
at 11 volts (Nixx) or near depleted at 9.3 volts
the signal output strength
is the same.

So far as a 45 upline or vertical upline

certainly electric or IC both need
throttle adjustments to maintain constant airspeed.  A “governor” that
maintains constant prop RPM could be applied to either setup (and
potentially maintain constant airspeed without an input from the pilot).  In
practice, less throttle adjustment is needed with an electric, because as
the load on the electric increases (airspeed decreases when climbing), the
electric motor attempts to maintain the RPM from the start of the climb
(KV*volts) by drawing more amps to maintain the RPM.  IC doesn’t do
this
.more load on engine results in a loss of RPM (absent any specific
tuning effects of the exhaust system, mixture, etc).

I think the intent of the rules are clear enough, and need to be updated to
reflect the current technology.

Regards,

Dave

  _____  

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
rcmaster199 at aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 11:48 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts

Ed,

I'm not so sure. Most IC's don't have a pressure regulator...the YS is about
the only one. This a passive device that has fixed settings. Dave's example
of the EFI may be a dfferent story though...I never spent any time dealing
with the OS EFI so I don't know how it worked. 

The problem with such analogies is that gas and glow fuels have a fixed
amount of pop per unit mass. Put in X amount and you will pretty much get Y
out for any given set-up, even poor ones. Y would vary of course depending
on how good the set-up was, meaning different operators will probably get
different Y's. However Y would be pretty much fixed for each operator

Batteries on the other hand, have a continuously variable amount of pop per
unit mass. Electronically taking the variable input volts and, through some
apparently straight forward software, drive a constant Y at the motor, is
where I am having some issue with. 

As for ESC's not doing much to alter the piloting of the model, again I am
not so sure. Dean used a good example: at near the end of the flight, let's
assume there is a diagonal or vertical. The battery has lost some pop and
the motor won't be able to keep up under constant throttle conditions. The
pilot would need to make a throttle adjustment to maintain momentum. If the
ESC had this new programming, the pilot would fly through this without
hardly noticing or changing his flying, just like we do with ICs. I
certainly am NOT opposed to reducing pilot work load...it's the how not the
what. 

And in this particular instance, equality between the types of propulsion IS
what the programmable ESC proponents want.....

The rule as written is sticky. I think that some type of clarification or
addendum to the rule, as Earl suggested, would eliminate the sticky wicket
if you will.

BTW- I am not implying that Dean is against the programmable ESC, far from
it. He has thought through what would be needed to accomplish the task. In
fact, he did something similar to Bob Hunt's WC stunt entry a few years ago.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Alt <ed_alt at hotmail.com>
To: NSRCA List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Wed, Mar 3, 2010 7:56 pm
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts

I actually was only halfway joking I said "Ban the YS Pressure Regulator",
or something like that.  Not that I really think it should be banned, but
for everyone who thinks it would be cheating to have an ESC that can
auto-compensate for dwindling battery voltage, then you ought to seriously
think about why it is OK to have a automatic pressure regulator in a recip.
There isn't much difference, other than one is wet and the other is dry.
And the other key point about having an ESC with this feature is that it
doesn't do anything to alter the piloting of the model based on the external
conditions that the model is encountering. All it is doing is de-rating the
output of the the battery to make it consistent throughout its useful
operation range.  

Ed

  _____  

To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 13:58:30 -0500
From: rcmaster199 at aol.com
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts

Dave,

I would argue that the ESC has the sensor built. It isn't a sensor in the
sense of a mag pick up such as CDI devices have. It is rather an exact
frequency determination to which the motor is driven. It is simpler and
hidden. Should we go back on mechanical advance....God no./

I think the CDI electronic advance is similar to today's digital servo. The
former advances spark pulsing based on rpm and the latter advances motor
output torque based on input load. Whether each violates, not sure. Needs
more thought and comparison to the rules. My first take would be to say NO
because the magnitude of adjustment is fixed

Matt

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Dave <mailto:DaveL322 at comcast.net>  

To: 'General pattern discussion' <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 9:47 AM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts

Matt,

One more thought/consideration/question –

Is electronic ignition with variable timing advance illegal?  Essentially
the RPM is sensed (through a sensor), and as RPM increases, the timing is
advanced.  The ESCs of today do the same function
they advance timing as RPM
increases, but do so without sensor.  Should we go back to sensors and
mechanical advance devices?

Regards,

Dave

On Mar 2, 2010, at 8:15 AM, rcmaster199 at aol.com wrote:

I had a brief conversation with Dean Pappas on this subject recently. Dean
explained that some folks have been advocates of programming the ESC to do
some footwork at various stages of battery use. He explained to me just how
easy this is to do physically. It seems a few have mentioned something
similar in this thread.

I am not that concerned about raising the voltage of the battery as I see
this as a somewhat clear violation of the FAI code. I am more concerned
about what and how the ESC is "programmed" . I would like for some one with
the electronic/software pedigree to explain to me how programming adjustable
rates of voltage potential and making these adjustments automatically, does
not constitute a programming violation within the rules as they exist today.

When the rules were written, we were clearly dealing with RADIO
pre-programmed sequences and the like, no gyros, etc. However I would argue
that rate auto adjustments that are definitely possible with the ESC's of
today, also qualify as a violation of said rules. Someone should sit down
and think this through...I could be convinced otherwise but it needs to be a
good argument

MattK

-----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Romano <anthonyr105 at hotmail.com>
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Sent: Tue, Mar 2, 2010 8:29 am
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts

Keep this line of thinking in mind next time we talk about weight limits! Or
any other rules proposal.

Anthony

> From: burtona at atmc.net
> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:45:57 -0500
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts
> 
> OK, So I have a question. Is knowingly and purposefully violating the
intent
> and letter of the rules to gain a performance advantage called cheating?
> ....... Just asking!
> Dave Burton
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?> ] On Behalf Of James
Oddino
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 7:16 PM
> To: General pattern discussion
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts
> 
> I have the functional concept that solves the rules problem. Picture a 10S
> pack positive lead wired to the common of a switch with two poles, a piece
> of wire connected from one pole to a pole on a second two pole switch with
> its common connected to the ESC. Between the other two poles we place our
> 11th cell. When the 10S pack is above 37.5 volts the 11th cell is bypassed
> and when it is below, like it will be during vertical maneuvers late in
> flight, the 11th cell is put in series to boost the voltage to up to 41.7
> volts. At no time is the voltage over the spec.
> 
> Having said that, I believe the 10S system provides adequate power with
the
> right motor at all times of flight even if the voltage drops to 35 volts.
> 
> Jim
> 
> 
> On Mar 1, 2010, at 8:59 AM, Bob Kane wrote:
> 
> > Going higher and regulating down would be against the rules, the max
volts
> is still limited to 42.56. 
> > 
> > Bob Kane
> > getterflash at yahoo.com
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Mon, 3/1/10, krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > 
> >> From: krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts
> >> To: chad at f3acanada.org, "General pattern discussion"
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >> Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 9:54 AM
> >> 
> >> Couldn't we go to a higher voltage and
> >> regulate it back down? A contstant 42.56v would be nice!
> >> 
> >> Chris 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> From: Chad
> >> Northeast <chad at f3acanada.org>
> >> To:
> >> nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >> Sent: Sun,
> >> February 28, 2010 8:48:48 PM
> >> Subject: Re:
> >> [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts
> >> 
> >> You would be at about 50% capacity at 3.85 ish volts/cell
> >> (resting open circuit), so unless you up the capacity you
> >> will have a pretty restricted flight time.
> >> 
> >> Chad
> >> 
> >> On 10-02-28 9:25 PM, Ron Van Putte wrote:
> >>> That stirs a wild thought in my brain. Fully
> >> charged packs don't stay at 4.2 volts per cell very
> >> long. On the other hand, once the initial charge
> >> voltage is burned off by a constant load, the voltage loss
> >> curve "flattens out". What if you put fully
> >> charged 6S and a 5S packs in series and "burn them
> >> down" to 3.869 volts per cell (a total of 42.56
> >> volts for an 11-cell pack) so they were legal for
> >> use. Would the voltage of this depleted 11S pack be
> >> higher than a fully charged 10S pack at the end of a typical
> >> flight? If the end-of-flight voltage might be
> >> significantly higher for the 11S pack vice a 10S pack, it
> >> would be worth investigating, even considering the extra
> >> weight of the additional cell. Come on you electronic
> >> gurus, show me where I'm wrong.
> >>> 
> >>> Ron Van Putte
> >>> 
> >>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 10:00 PM, James Oddino wrote:
> >>> 
> >>>> What comes after ...? Does it specify a load
> >> or any other conditions? Is it measured during the
> >> noise test and have a minimum value?
> >>>> 
> >>>> Just stirring the pot, Jim O
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 5:21 PM, John Fuqua wrote:
> >>>> 
> >>>>> No its not (assuming we are talking RC
> >> Aerobatics). Try page RCA-2 para 4.1
> >>>>> which
> >> states "Electrically-powered model aircraft are
> >> limited to a maximum
> >>>>> of 42.56 volts.."
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>>> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org?> ]
> >> On Behalf Of Ron Van Putte
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 7:07 PM
> >>>>> To: General pattern discussion
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Max volts
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> It's in the general rules, not in the R/C
> >> section.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> On Feb 28, 2010, at 6:50 PM, Jim Quinn wrote:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>> Where can I find the rule
> >> for max volts?
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >>>>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >>>>>> 
> >> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
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> >>>>> 
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