[NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps

Mon Jul 5 11:16:18 AKDT 2010

Hi Dave, 

In this sentence "I would hope it is clear enough that snaps absent of both pitch and yaw must be downgraded"  I think should be pitch only.   Yaw should be downgraded when reading the FAI description of snap roll.  I will agree that is extremely difficult to see the yaw before or during the pitch brake.  Also, I know that it is very difficult to do a pure pitch break.  Probably this is the reason that all maneuvers with snaps have the highest K factor. 

Thanks, 

Vicente "Vince" Bortone 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave" <DaveL322 at comcast.net> 
To: "General pattern discussion" < nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org> 
Sent: Monday, July 5, 2010 1:47:46 PM 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps 

Vicente "Vince" Bortone 

Vicente "Vince" Bortone 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave" <DaveL322 at comcast.net> 
To: "General pattern discussion" < nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org> 
Sent: Monday, July 5, 2010 1:47:46 PM 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps 

“….break and separation from the flight path…..” 

and 

“…….constant flight path through the manoeuvre ……” 

Seems to me that the definition is contradictory.  A break could occur in the sense that there is a deviation between attitude and track, but “separation from the flight path” and “constant flight path” are contradictory.  I would hope it is clear enough that snaps absent of both pitch and yaw must be downgraded. 

I would point out that a snap that finishes on the same heading, but shows a minor line displacement has very little effect on the geometry of the maneuver.  Looking at a straight line of 400’……a snap in the middle of the line would have to displace 50 feet (8 wingspans) vertically or horizontally to change the line (from start to finish) by 15 degrees (1 point).  I see no other guidance in the rulebook applicable to how a line displacement should be downgraded. 

Regards, 

Dave 

From: nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org [ mailto : nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org] On Behalf Of Dr Mike 
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 11:28 AM 
To: 'General pattern discussion' 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps 

Good point, thanks Troy. 

From: nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org [ mailto : nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org] On Behalf Of Troy Newman 
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 10:06 AM 
To: General pattern discussion 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps 

Ken, 

It still has to stay on flight path 

“Snap rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation, and constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned.” 

As Matt suggested this is not a discussion on we think it should be,  rather it is how the rule is written 

Troy 

From: nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org [ mailto : nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org] On Behalf Of Ken Thompson 
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 7:13 AM 
To: General pattern discussion 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps 

Glad for that description...the way I originally understood it the plane was not supposed to deviate from the flight path...always said that was impossible... 

Ken 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Dr Mike 

To: 'General pattern discussion' 

Sent: Monday, July 05, 2010 7:04 AM 

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps 

Yes that is correct, thanks Matt. 

Mike 

From: nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org [ mailto : nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org] On Behalf Of rcmaster199@ aol .com 
Sent: Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:22 PM 
To: nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org ; f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps 

The F3A maneuver description may be inadequate and/or inaccurate, however that doesn't much matter for the judge who has the ardeous task of deciphering the snap. The description stands as is for this cycle and that's how the World's judges will judge them to the best of their ability next year. I urge all judges that judge F3A Semis and Finals at this year's Nats /Team Selection contest to take heed of  FAI description (not AMA) and judge accordingly. 

In essence, Snaps should not zeroe'd as easily as they once were; far cry from where it was just a couple years ago. I believe that's the main reason the rule was written as indicated. 

Mike's point I think deals with bringing the Snap back out of hibernation such that folks get a chance to re-read it and re-hash just in time for the Team Selection; fresh in one's mind so to speak 

Matt K 

-----Original Message----- 
From: Woodward, Jim R (US SSA) < jim . woodward @ baesystems .com> 
To: 'f3a-discussion at lists.f3a. us' <f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us>; 'nsrca-discussion at lists. nsrca . org' < nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org> 
Sent: Sun, Jul 4, 2010 4:27 pm 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps 

Mike, I'm replying from a blackberry without the benefit of the rulebook in front of me. I thought these were called "Flick Rolls" now? I don't think any of us are equipped in the context of judging a 0.5 second manuever to determine if is "stalled" or " unstalled ." I think Jerry Budd posted on the nsrca list the last dissertation on snaps, which from memory, pretty much proved the planes are not stalled. 

Given you posted this, what do you want to see happen? Thx Jim W. 

>From : f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us < f3a-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us > 
To : 'General pattern discussion' < nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org >; f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us < f3a-discussion at lists.f3a.us > 
Sent : Sun Jul 04 17:11:46 2010 
Subject : [F3A-Discussion] snaps 

Given the abundance of snap maneuvers(7 maneuvers, 9 snaps) in the F-11 pattern, I feel compelled to give the exact description via the F3A rulebook: 

A snap-roll is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a stalled attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack. 

Snap rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation, and constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned. 

At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be I a stalled condition throughout the maneuver.  If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft barrel-rolls around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded(more than 5 points).  Similarly, axial rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded(more than 5 points) 

Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same criteria apply.  The attitude(positive or negative) is at the competitors discretion.  If the model aircraft returns to an unstalled condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded using the 1 point/15 degree rule. 

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