<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'><P><SPAN>Hi Dave,</SPAN></P>
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<P><SPAN>In this sentence <FONT color=#000000>"I would hope it is clear enough that snaps absent of both pitch and yaw must be downgraded" I think should be pitch only. Yaw should be downgraded when reading the FAI description of snap roll. I will agree that is extremely difficult to see the yaw before or during the pitch brake. Also, I know that it is very difficult to do a pure pitch break. Probably this is the reason that all maneuvers with snaps have the highest K factor.</FONT></SPAN></P>
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<P><SPAN><FONT color=#000000>Thanks,</P>
<P><BR><BR></FONT>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR></SPAN><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "Dave" <DaveL322@comcast.net><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Monday, July 5, 2010 1:47:46 PM<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps<BR><BR></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">“….break and separation from the flight path…..”</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">and</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">“…….constant flight path through the manoeuvre……”</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Seems to me that the definition is contradictory. A break could occur in the sense that there is a deviation between attitude and track, but “separation from the flight path” and “constant flight path” are contradictory. I would hope it is clear enough that snaps absent of both pitch and yaw must be downgraded.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I would point out that a snap that finishes on the same heading, but shows a minor line displacement has very little effect on the geometry of the maneuver. Looking at a straight line of 400’……a snap in the middle of the line would have to displace 50 feet (8 wingspans) vertically or horizontally to change the line (from start to finish) by 15 degrees (1 point). I see no other guidance in the rulebook applicable to how a line displacement should be downgraded.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Regards,</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dave</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Dr Mike<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, July 05, 2010 11:28 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> 'General pattern discussion'<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Good point, thanks Troy.</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Troy Newman<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, July 05, 2010 10:06 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ken,</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It still has to stay on flight path</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">“Snap rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation, and <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">constant flight</SPAN></B> path through the manoeuvre is concerned.”</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">As Matt suggested this is not a discussion on we think it should be, rather it is how the rule is written</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Troy</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Ken Thompson<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, July 05, 2010 7:13 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Glad for that description...the way I originally understood it the plane was not supposed to deviate from the flight path...always said that was impossible...</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ken</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">----- Original Message ----- </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A title=drmikedds@sbcglobal.net href="mailto:drmikedds@sbcglobal.net" target=_blank>Dr Mike</A> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">To:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>'General pattern discussion'</A> </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Sent:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Monday, July 05, 2010 7:04 AM</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Subject:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Yes that is correct, thanks Matt.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri color=#1f497d size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri">Mike </SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B><A href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com" target=_blank>rcmaster199@aol.com</A><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, July 04, 2010 6:22 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>; <A href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us" target=_blank>f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</A><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">The F3A maneuver description may be inadequate and/or inaccurate, however that doesn't much matter for the judge who has the ardeous task of deciphering the snap. The description stands as is for this cycle and that's how the World's judges will judge them to the best of their ability next year. I urge all judges that judge F3A Semis and Finals at this year's Nats/Team Selection contest to take heed of FAI description (not AMA) and judge accordingly.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">In essence, Snaps should not zeroe'd as easily as they once were; far cry from where it was just a couple years ago. I believe that's the main reason the rule was written as indicated. </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Mike's point I think deals with bringing the Snap back out of hibernation such that folks get a chance to re-read it and re-hash just in time for the Team Selection; fresh in one's mind so to speak</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Matt K</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Woodward, Jim R (US SSA) <jim.woodward@baesystems.com><BR>To: 'f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us' <f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us>; 'nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org' <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Sun, Jul 4, 2010 4:27 pm<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] [F3A-Discussion] snaps</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Mike, I'm replying from a blackberry without the benefit of the rulebook in front of me. I thought these were called "Flick Rolls" now? I don't think any of us are equipped in the context of judging a 0.5 second manuever to determine if is "stalled" or "unstalled." I think Jerry Budd posted on the nsrca list the last dissertation on snaps, which from memory, pretty much proved the planes are not stalled.<BR><BR>Given you posted this, what do you want to see happen? Thx Jim W.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">: <A href="mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us</SPAN></FONT></A> <<A href="mailto:f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">f3a-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us</SPAN></FONT></A>> <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To</SPAN></B>: 'General pattern discussion' <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</SPAN></FONT></A>>; <A href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</SPAN></FONT></A> <<A href="mailto:f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us" target=_blank><FONT color=blue><SPAN style="COLOR: blue">f3a-discussion@lists.f3a.us</SPAN></FONT></A>> <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent</SPAN></B>: Sun Jul 04 17:11:46 2010<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject</SPAN></B>: [F3A-Discussion] snaps </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Given the abundance of snap maneuvers(7 maneuvers, 9 snaps) in the F-11 pattern, I feel compelled to give the exact description via the F3A rulebook:</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">A snap-roll is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a stalled attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Snap rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation, and constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned.</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be I a stalled condition throughout the maneuver. If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft barrel-rolls around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded(more than 5 points). Similarly, axial rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded(more than 5 points)</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same criteria apply. The attitude(positive or negative) is at the competitors discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an unstalled condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded using the 1 point/15 degree rule. </SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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