[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

Fri Oct 23 13:00:56 AKDT 2009

We each have the same belief in this matter.  I know it would take some organizing, and a lot of data input, but possibly the computer gurus could figure out a way for the CD's to input the information in a manner that would allow it direct entry into the database.
I'm sure that AMA probably only uses those contest reports to satisfy the CD requirements, and other things to which we're not privy.
But, it sure works in rifle shooting.  I remember well looking in my scorebook and thinking "Gee, I've shot myself into the next class!"  A few days later, my new card was in my mailbox.  Worked every time.
Bill
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John Gayer 
  To: General pattern discussion 
  Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 1:46 PM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

  Bill,

  I believe that we can put together a team to address a national database. I am quite willing to work on belling that cat.
  However, first we need buyin from the NSRCA that it would be used for advancement/relegation or some other useful specified purpose. Second, the results reporting is required only to the AMA as part of the contest sanction. It appears that at the moment they are not organized enough to keep track of rules proposals. Since they have no requirement to do anything with those results you know they are ending up thrown in a file, circular or otherwise.

  John Gayer

  Bill Glaze wrote: 
    I would also, as you suggested, like to see a system that, nationally, keeps track of all scores and, when the rules (what ever they may be established at) say to do so, that person moves.  It works very well indeed in the rifle shooting sport.  
    Problem:  Like the mice who decided that they would put a bell on the cat, so he couldn't sneak up on them, were stopped in their tracks by the elderly mouse who said, simply,  "good idea.  But who's going to put the bell on the cat?"
    The logical place would be the AMA, but that won't happen.  According to Tony, they don't even want to have the Nats; they'd go nuts at the idea of collecting and collating all the contest scores from throughout the nation..
    Bill Glaze
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: John Gayer 
      To: General pattern discussion 
      Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 4:28 PM
      Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

      Mike,

      What is the point of a mandatory system for advancement without a central organization keeping track? That makes it voluntary. Sort of like posting a speed limit but guaranteeing that there are no cops on the road. 
      There are also huge differences in the depth and quality of the competition geographically. You may be chief frog in your little puddle but if you venture out into the ocean you are in way over your head.
      If you must have an advancement system, it should be done the Aussie way. Keep a national database of raw scores, establish national averages for class advancement, and  kick flyers into the next class when they exceed the National average three times in a year. It also allows for relegating down a class if you don't maintain a minimum scoring standard. Not perfect but a whole lot better than ours.

      Or.... we could just change the advancement system to a guideline or even abolish it.

      John Gayer

      michael s harrison wrote: 
        I personally don't think the mandatory system should be abandoned, but it should be overhauled.  I would recommend something on the order of 5 points for 1st, 3 for 2nd and 1 for 3rd for a total of maybe 50 points, with the stipulation that you will have to have 2 first place finishes for required advancement.  That scenario would give the pilot 1st place at 10 contests before movement is required.  If the pilot never places first, he would never be required to advance.  Another stipulation is that a minimum of 3 pilots compete.  

        I believe that pilots that are truly competitive will move up voluntarily-most of the time.  However, a safeguard- or check and balance system is warranted, IMO.

        Mike

        From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Anthony Abdullah
        Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 12:54 PM
        To: General pattern discussion
        Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

        Jim,

        You make some excellent points and in large part I agree with you. I don't, however, see how your response has addressed the food for thought questions I presented. Let me put it a different way that might make more sense.

        Masters is the "accepted" destination class, but every pattern pilot has his own destination class based on a number of factors. In a  perfect world every individual internally defines thier destination class, and I think that is what you are saying below. Know your abilities and life situation and fly in the appropriate class for your skills until you feel the need to move up. What I was suggesting we think about is addressing some of the external factors that push people to a class they are not prepared for or interested in.

        At the end of the day, it feels like I am closing the door after the horse is already out of the barn because this issue has already been addressed, for the most part. I think removing forced advancement and allowing movement up and down between classes will solve those problems.

        So, like the old Saturday Night Live sketch.... Nevermind. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

        From: J N Hiller <jnhiller at earthlink.net>
        To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
        Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 12:58:49 PM
        Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

        I think the right approach is on the way, dump mandatory advancement and allow moving back and change the advanced sequence every two years.

        Like most voluntary activities we name our own poison. I voluntarily moved to masters because I was getting too complacent flying advanced. If we had gotten a new sequence for 09-10 I probably would have stayed. The gage I use is my contest (all 5 or 6 rounds) raw score average. By mid season the second year it was dropping a clear indication that my interest was dropping and needed additional challenges.

        For most of us proficiency flying pattern includes a lot of experience / stick time flying in all conditions over an extended period of time and has nothing to do with how many times you beat someone that's having a bad day or can't get out to practice. Some of us still have work and family commitments that take priority.

        Stay in advanced until you feel the need for something more challenging or through several sequence changes. Each new sequence teaches new lessons and offers valuable experience and the opportunity to fly a sequence your comfortable with in adverse weather conditions. Flying in adverse conditions only compounds the difficulty when moving up. For example, maintaining figure M geometry, track and position in a 15-20 MPH wind is about twice as hard and probably 4 times as hard as flying the 6-side outside loop on a windy day. 

        As for the pile up in masters ask them how long they have flown pattern been in masters. Probably half have flown with and against each other from pre-turnaround and likely will continue. AMA masters class is and has been a destination class for a very long time not a steeping stone to FAI. In years past FAI team selection was through a masters selection program and FAI wasn't even flown at most local contests. Adding FAI at local contests allowed them to fly a single event / schedule only effectively reducing masters class numbers. 

        The bottom line is, fly and compete where you are comfortable and judge your ability by your own scores as a percent of maximum K rather than on how well someone else flies or doesn't fly.

        Sorry about getting on my soap box but I really like the challenge of flying pattern and traveling around flying with old and new friends. It never gets any easier but it is always fun and I wouldn't have it any other way.

        Jim Hiller 

        -----Original Message-----
        From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Anthony Abdullah
        Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2009 7:47 AM
        To: General pattern discussion
        Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

        Here is a silly question:

        Is the log jam of people in Masters as much a function of it being "acceptable" to park there as much as anything else? I am a "relatively competent" advanced pilot, I don't win the class but I am usually competitive and have on occasion played the part of spoiler, I already feel the pressure to move up to masters even though I still have not mastered advanced. Would there be more people in advanced if it felt ok to stay there until you felt completely comfortable with all elements of the class? would that equlize participant distribution in other classes? I know a couple of people in D4 that are doing well in advanced but not consistantly dominant. If they move up to masters they will almost certainly have less fun and will absolutely struggle at contests. Should they be allowed to stay in advanced forever if they like? Perhaps that is the limit of their natural flying ability or the highest level they can ascend to given their life situation (work, practice time, budget, etc). On the other side, I spoke with  D5 pilot this summer that said "I should not be in masters, I moved up because it was time to but i can't really fly this pattern as well as I need to, I just don't have enough time to practice". 

        I don't know what the right approach is but we should consider the entire picture as we look for answers. The problem may now be with the sequences at all, but with the general feeling that a particular pilot has to move up before they are ready. I guess that is the old advancement discussion again.

        Thanks

        Anthony

------------------------------------------------------------------------

        From: Stuart Chale <schale at optonline.net>
        To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
        Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:26:02 PM
        Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question

        8 to 1 middle of the 9th.
        In regards to the sequences, I am probably in the minority but I think the lower classes need to be a little harder.  Probably even Masters.  Most areas of the country are seeing a bunching up in Masters.  I like it, makes for good competition in that class.  I do not want to come in second in my class (and last) :)
        Perhaps if the classes were a little more difficult people would not move up as quickly.  Put more difficult rolling maneuvers in advanced, add some integrated rolling maneuvers into Masters.  Would there be more fliers in the lower classes, would the classes be more even?  Don't know.  Is this what we want?

        Should someone be "prepared" to go to the next higher class from their current class?  There needs to be an increase in difficulty which there is.  You should have to work at the next class when moving up.

        Rollers, love to watch them done well, but can't do them well :)  They really do use a lot of real estate though and sort of goes against the idea of decreased space use that we have with turnaround.  IMAC has the same problem.  They have a score for proper airspace use which includes a reduced footprint but has rollers in all 3 or the upper classes :)

        Stuart C.

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