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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>We each have the same belief in this matter.
I know it would take some organizing, and a lot of data input, but possibly the
computer gurus could figure out a way for the CD's to input the information in a
manner that would allow it direct entry into the database.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I'm sure that AMA probably only uses those contest
reports to satisfy the CD requirements, and other things to which we're not
privy.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>But, it sure works in rifle shooting. I
remember well looking in my scorebook and thinking "Gee, I've shot myself into
the next class!" A few days later, my new card was in my mailbox.
Worked every time.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Bill</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jgghome@comcast.net href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net">John Gayer</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 23, 2009 1:46
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules
proposal 11-6 question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Bill,<BR><BR>I believe that we can put together a team to
address a national database. I am quite willing to work on belling that
cat.<BR>However, first we need buyin from the NSRCA that it would be used for
advancement/relegation or some other useful specified purpose. Second, the
results reporting is required only to the AMA as part of the contest sanction.
It appears that at the moment they are not organized enough to keep track of
rules proposals. Since they have no requirement to do anything with those
results you know they are ending up thrown in a file, circular or
otherwise.<BR><BR>John Gayer<BR><BR>Bill Glaze wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:D0A75BDCB58E4CCFB1F910082E0B2ACB@glazecstp32xp
type="cite">
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I would also, as you suggested, like to see a
system that, nationally, keeps track of all scores and, when the rules (what
ever they may be established at) say to do so, that person moves. It
works very well indeed in the rifle shooting sport. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Problem: Like the mice who decided that
they would put a bell on the cat, so he couldn't sneak up on them, were
stopped in their tracks by the elderly mouse who said, simply, "good
idea. But who's going to put the bell on the cat?"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>The logical place would be the AMA, but that
won't happen. According to Tony, they don't even want to have the
Nats; they'd go nuts at the idea of collecting and collating all the contest
scores from throughout the nation..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Bill Glaze</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal">-----
Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: rgb(228,228,228) 0% 50%; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jgghome@comcast.net href="mailto:jgghome@comcast.net"
moz-do-not-send="true">John Gayer</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>To:</B>
<A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, October 22, 2009 4:28 PM</DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal"><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Mike,<BR><BR>What is the point of a mandatory system for
advancement without a central organization keeping track? That makes it
voluntary. Sort of like posting a speed limit but guaranteeing that there
are no cops on the road. <BR>There are also huge differences in the depth
and quality of the competition geographically. You may be chief frog in
your little puddle but if you venture out into the ocean you are in way
over your head.<BR>If you must have an advancement system, it should be
done the Aussie way. Keep a national database of raw scores, establish
national averages for class advancement, and kick flyers into the
next class when they exceed the National average three times in a year. It
also allows for relegating down a class if you don't maintain a minimum
scoring standard. Not perfect but a whole lot better than
ours.<BR><BR>Or.... we could just change the advancement system to a
guideline or even abolish it.<BR><BR>John Gayer<BR><BR>michael s harrison
wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:001201ca534f$fdcf3f20$f96dbd60$@net type="cite">
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<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
personally don’t think the mandatory system should be abandoned, but it
should be overhauled. I would recommend something on the order of
5 points for 1<SUP>st</SUP>, 3 for 2<SUP>nd</SUP> and 1 for
3<SUP>rd</SUP> for a total of maybe 50 points, with the stipulation that
you will have to have 2 first place finishes for required
advancement. That scenario would give the pilot 1<SUP>st</SUP>
place at 10 contests before movement is required. If the pilot
never places first, he would never be required to advance. Another
stipulation is that a minimum of 3 pilots compete.
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
believe that pilots that are truly competitive will move up
voluntarily-most of the time. However, a safeguard- or check and
balance system is warranted, IMO.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Mike<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: rgb(181,196,223) 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Anthony Abdullah<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October
22, 2009 12:54 PM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern
discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6
question<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Jim,<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>You make some excellent points and in large part I
agree with you. I don't, however, see how your response has addressed
the food for thought questions I presented. Let me put it a different
way that might make more sense.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Masters is the "accepted" destination class, but
every pattern pilot has his own destination class based on a number of
factors. In a perfect world every individual internally
defines thier destination class, and I think that is what you are saying
below. Know your abilities and life situation and fly in the appropriate
class for your skills until you feel the need to move up. What I was
suggesting we think about is addressing some of the external factors
that push people to a class they are not prepared for or interested
in.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>At the end of the day, it feels like I
am closing the door after the horse is already out of the barn
because this issue has already been addressed, for the most part. I
think removing forced advancement and allowing movement up and down
between classes will solve those problems.<O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>So, like the old Saturday Night Live sketch....
Nevermind. <O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
<DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<HR align=center SIZE=1 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> J N Hiller
<A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><jnhiller@earthlink.net></A><BR><B>To:</B>
General pattern discussion <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A><BR><B>Sent:</B>
Thursday, October 22, 2009 12:58:49 PM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I think the
right approach is on the way, dump mandatory advancement and allow
moving back and change the advanced sequence every two
years.</SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Like most
voluntary activities we name our own poison. I voluntarily moved to
masters because I was getting too complacent flying advanced. If we had
gotten a new sequence for 09-10 I probably would have stayed. The gage I
use is my contest (all 5 or 6 rounds) raw score average. By mid season
the second year it was dropping a clear indication that my interest was
dropping and needed additional challenges.</SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">For most of
us proficiency flying pattern includes a lot of experience / stick time
flying in all conditions over an extended period of time and has nothing
to do with how many times you beat someone that's having a bad day or
can't get out to practice. Some of us still have work and family
commitments that take priority.</SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Stay in
advanced until you feel the need for something more challenging or
through several sequence changes. Each new sequence teaches new lessons
and offers valuable experience and the opportunity to fly a sequence
your comfortable with in adverse weather conditions. Flying in adverse
conditions only compounds the difficulty when moving up. For example,
maintaining figure M geometry, track and position in a 15-20 MPH wind is
about twice as hard and probably 4 times as hard as flying the 6-side
outside loop on a windy day. </SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">As for the
pile up in masters ask them how long they have flown pattern been in
masters. Probably half have flown with and against each other from
pre-turnaround and likely will continue. AMA masters class is and has
been a destination class for a very long time not a steeping stone to
FAI. In years past FAI team selection was through a masters selection
program and FAI wasn't even flown at most local contests. Adding FAI at
local contests allowed them to fly a single event / schedule only
effectively reducing masters class numbers.
</SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The bottom
line is, fly and compete where you are comfortable and judge your
ability by your own scores as a percent of maximum K rather than on how
well someone else flies or doesn't fly.</SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sorry about
getting on my soap box but I really like the challenge of flying pattern
and traveling around flying with old and new friends. It never gets any
easier but it is always fun and I wouldn't have it any other
way.</SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Jim Hiller
</SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=emailstyle18><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A> [<A
class=moz-txt-link-freetext
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]<B>On
Behalf Of </B>Anthony Abdullah<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 22,
2009 7:47 AM<BR><B>To:</B> General pattern discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6
question</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Here is a silly question:</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"><BR>Is the log jam of people in Masters as
much a function of it being "acceptable" to park there as much as
anything else? I am a "relatively competent" advanced pilot, I don't win
the class but I am usually competitive and have on occasion played the
part of spoiler, I already feel the pressure to move up to masters even
though I still have not mastered advanced. Would there be more people in
advanced if it felt ok to stay there until you felt completely
comfortable with all elements of the class? would that equlize
participant distribution in other classes? I know a couple of
people in D4 that are doing well in advanced but not consistantly
dominant. If they move up to masters they will almost certainly
have less fun and will absolutely struggle at contests. Should they be
allowed to stay in advanced forever if they like? Perhaps that is the
limit of their natural flying ability or the highest level they can
ascend to given their life situation (work, practice time, budget, etc).
On the other side, I spoke with D5 pilot this summer that said "I
should not be in masters, I moved up because it was time to but i can't
really fly this pattern as well as I need to, I just don't have enough
time to practice". </SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">I don't know what the right approach is but we
should consider the entire picture as we look for answers. The
problem may now be with the sequences at all, but with the general
feeling that a particular pilot has to move up before they are ready. I
guess that is the old advancement discussion
again.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Thanks</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black">Anthony</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: black"></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P>
<DIV style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in">
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<HR align=center SIZE=1 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
Stuart Chale <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:schale@optonline.net"
moz-do-not-send="true"><schale@optonline.net></A><BR><B>To:</B>
General pattern discussion <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org></A><BR><B>Sent:</B>
Tuesday, October 20, 2009 11:26:02 PM<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Rules proposal 11-6 question<BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR>8
to 1 middle of the 9th.<BR>In regards to the sequences, I am probably in
the minority but I think the lower classes need to be a little
harder. Probably even Masters. Most areas of the country are
seeing a bunching up in Masters. I like it, makes for good
competition in that class. I do not want to come in second in my
class (and last) :)<BR>Perhaps if the classes were a little more
difficult people would not move up as quickly. Put more difficult
rolling maneuvers in advanced, add some integrated rolling maneuvers
into Masters. Would there be more fliers in the lower classes,
would the classes be more even? Don't know. Is this what we
want?<BR><BR>Should someone be "prepared" to go to the next higher class
from their current class? There needs to be an increase in
difficulty which there is. You should have to work at the next
class when moving up.<BR><BR>Rollers, love to watch them done well, but
can't do them well :) They really do use a lot of real estate
though and sort of goes against the idea of decreased space use that we
have with turnaround. IMAC has the same problem. They have a
score for proper airspace use which includes a reduced footprint but has
rollers in all 3 or the upper classes :)<BR><BR>Stuart
C.<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list<BR><A href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
target=_blank
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href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A></SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><PRE wrap=""><HR SIZE=4 width="90%">
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