[NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll(BrakeRoll)Description

Fri Oct 16 14:33:52 AKDT 2009

Yes.  Also depends is down line or up line .  I was practicing the one in P-11 the other day with cross wind and it was a huge improvement when snapping into  the cross wind.   

Vicente "Vince" Bortone 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "J Shu " < jshulman @ cfl . rr .com> 
To: "General pattern discussion" < nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org> 
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:32:25 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll( BrakeRoll )Description 

Depends on how strong the wind is 

Regards, 
Jason 
www.shulmanaviation.com 
www.composite-arf.com 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Vicente "Vince" Bortone 
To: General pattern discussion 
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 12:30 PM 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll( BrakeRoll )Description 

Isn't better to snap into the wind to avoid displacement when there is cross wind (almost always in contests)?  

Vicente "Vince" Bortone 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "J N Hiller" < jnhiller at earthlink.net > 
To: jpavlick at idseng.com , "General pattern discussion" < nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org > 
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:24:00 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll( BrakeRoll )Description 

I found that the direction of the snap was better one way over the other also. 

That "what ever works" part is what we need to remember when writing rules and quit trying to include how to fly the airplane in the maneuver description. 

Jim Hiller 

-----Original Message----- 
From: nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org [mailto: nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org] On Behalf Of John Pavlick 
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:01 AM 
To: nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll( BrakeRoll )Description 

I do positive snaps on the Avalanche and I got a few 9's at the NAT's so apparently it doesn't pinch it too much. LOL 

I'm working on practicing it both ways to see what looks better. I guess it depends on the airplane. Some just don't like to do negative snaps and others will really mess up the loop geometry if you do a positive snap. Like everything else, whatever works for you is best. 

It's snowing here too. :) 

John Pavlick 

--- On Fri, 10/16/09, frank <frankjuliei at comcast.net> wrote: 

From: frank <frankjuliei at comcast.net> 
Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll ( BrakeRoll )Description 
To: jpavlick at idseng.com, "'General pattern discussion'" < nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org> 
Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 11:25 AM 

Woudn’t that pinch the loop ?  For the sake of my example,   let’s use a  positive snap.  Don’t know if my point about judging  this maneuver is clear.  Flying weather is ,well, not the best ( 35 degrees and flurries) so I’m rehearsing with a stick plane.LOL. 

F. 
Woudn’t that pinch the loop ?  For the sake of my example,   let’s use a  positive snap.  Don’t know if my point about judging  this maneuver is clear.  Flying weather is ,well, not the best ( 35 degrees and flurries) so I’m rehearsing with a stick plane.LOL. 

F. 

From: nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org [mailto: nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org] On Behalf Of John Pavlick 
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:04 AM 
To: General pattern discussion 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll ( BrakeRoll )Description 

Frank, 

 In the Advanced Avalanche you don't have to push (negative snap) - you can pull if you prefer. 

John Pavlick 

--- On Fri, 10/16/09, frank <frankjuliei at comcast.net> wrote: 

From: frank <frankjuliei at comcast.net> 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll (Brake Roll)Description 
To: "' General pattern discussion '" < nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org> 
Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 10:45 AM 

 In the current Master’s sequence, the Avalanche with 1 ½  snap (from the bottom)-  The model is inverted and flies the first half of the outside loop.  The aircraft is  supposed to pitch up (pull) for the break, then perform the 1 ½  snap roll.  In the Advanced Sequence  Avalanche with a single  snap , the aircraft is  inverted at the top, but the pilot has to pitch (push)  before  the roll. In both situations, it seems likely  that  judges will have to look hard to see the break because of the altitude/location/climb of the model, no?. 

Frank 

From: nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org [mailto: nsrca -discussion-bounces at lists. nsrca .org] On Behalf Of rcmaster199 at aol.com 
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 9:43 AM 
To: nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll (Brake Roll)Description 

Jerry Budd explained pretty well the fact that pattern planes are so lightly loaded that a large amount of force in pitch must exist to cause a stall. Stalls, accelerated and/or assymetric, I don't think are what happens in a pattern snap. 

I believe an assymetry in lift does however. Think of the the wing as two halves (fancy that) where one sides lifts the equivalent of its whole area and the other side only a small percentage. Neither panel is stalled per se....one simply lifts less than the other. Yaw will induce the differential lift once the wing has been loaded in pitch. Assymetric lift will cause the wing to autorotate in roll axis.....we accelerate that autorotation with ailerons (duh!!). Some planes will snap with yaw command alone once pitch loading has happened. Most pattern planes will not because, as Jerry pointed out, it doesn't take a whole lot of lift to keep a pattern plane flying 

My 2c 

MattK 

-----Original Message----- 
From: Martin X. Moleski, SJ < moleski at canisius.edu > 
To: General pattern discussion < nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org> 
Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:43 am 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll (Brake Roll) Description 

Keith Black wrote:  
> How about this definition:  

> At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a  
> definite break and separation from the  
> flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft  
> is supposed to be in a stalled  
> condition throughout the maneuver ...  

That what Vicente (and others) are arguing is a bad  
definition for our purposes.  

I agree with those who want to remove all references to  
stalling from the definition of the maneuver.  

The model must depart (break away) from all three  
axes. Saying that the first departure must be separated  
from the other two does not make good sense to me.  

Demonstrating the kind of "stall" that leads to a  
spin entry is very different from the assymetric stall  
required for autorotation--at least in my own understanding  
of what accelerated stalls are like.  

  Marty  
_______________________________________________  
NSRCA-discussion mailing list  
NSRCA-discussion at lists. nsrca .org   
http://lists. nsrca .org/mailman/listinfo/ nsrca -discussion   

-----Inline Attachment Follows----- 

_______________________________________________ 
NSRCA-discussion mailing list 
NSRCA-discussion at lists. nsrca .org 
http://lists. nsrca .org/mailman/listinfo/ nsrca -discussion 

_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists. nsrca .org http://lists. nsrca .org/mailman/listinfo/ nsrca -discussion 

_______________________________________________ 
NSRCA-discussion mailing list 
NSRCA-discussion at lists. nsrca .org 
http://lists. nsrca .org/mailman/listinfo/ nsrca -discussion 
_______________________________________________ NSRCA-discussion mailing list NSRCA-discussion at lists. nsrca .org http://lists. nsrca .org/mailman/listinfo/ nsrca -discussion
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.nsrca.org/pipermail/nsrca-discussion/attachments/20091016/3964595a/attachment.html>