<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'><P>Yes. Also depends is down line or up line. I was practicing the one in P-11 the other day with cross wind and it was a huge improvement when snapping into the cross wind. </P>
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<P><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "J Shu" <jshulman@cfl.rr.com><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:32:25 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll(BrakeRoll)Description<BR><BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#000080>Depends on how strong the wind is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/" target=_blank>www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A href="http://www.composite-arf.com/" target=_blank>www.composite-arf.com</A><BR></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=vicenterc@comcast.net href="mailto:vicenterc@comcast.net" target=_blank>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>General pattern discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 16, 2009 12:30 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll(BrakeRoll)Description</DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Isn't better to snap into the wind to avoid displacement when there is cross wind (almost always in contests)? <BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "J N Hiller" <<A href="mailto:jnhiller@earthlink.net" target=_blank>jnhiller@earthlink.net</A>><BR>To: <A href="mailto:jpavlick@idseng.com" target=_blank>jpavlick@idseng.com</A>, "General pattern discussion" <<A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>><BR>Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 11:24:00 AM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll(BrakeRoll)Description<BR><BR>
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<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle29><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">I found that the direction of the snap was better one way over the other also. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle29><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">That "what ever works" part is what we need to remember when writing rules and quit trying to include how to fly the airplane in the maneuver description.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=EmailStyle29><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt">Jim Hiller</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>John Pavlick<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, October 16, 2009 9:01 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll(BrakeRoll)Description</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">I do positive snaps on the Avalanche and I got a few 9's at the NAT's so apparently it doesn't pinch it too much. LOL</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">I'm working on practicing it both ways to see what looks better. I guess it depends on the airplane. Some just don't like to do negative snaps and others will really mess up the loop geometry if you do a positive snap. Like everything else, whatever works for you is best.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">It's snowing here too. :)</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit">John Pavlick<BR><BR>--- On <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Fri, 10/16/09, frank <I><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><frankjuliei@comcast.net></SPAN></I></SPAN></B> wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid #1010FF 1.5pt"><FONT face=inherit color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit"><BR>From: frank <frankjuliei@comcast.net><BR>Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll (BrakeRoll)Description<BR>To: jpavlick@idseng.com, "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 11:25 AM</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=inherit color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: inherit; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<DIV id=yiv1575840929>Woudn’t that pinch the loop ? For the sake of my example, let’s use a positive snap. Don’t know if my point about judging this maneuver is clear. Flying weather is ,well, not the best ( 35 degrees and flurries) so I’m rehearsing with a stick plane.LOL.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.2pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid #1010FF 1.5pt"><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>John Pavlick<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, October 16, 2009 11:04 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> General pattern discussion<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll (BrakeRoll)Description</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'">Frank,</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"> In the Advanced Avalanche you don't <EM><I>have</I></EM> to push (negative snap) - you can pull if you prefer. </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'">John Pavlick<BR><BR>--- On <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Fri, 10/16/09, frank <I><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: italic"><frankjuliei@comcast.net></SPAN></I></SPAN></B> wrote:</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-padding-alt: 0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid #1010FF 1.5pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"><BR>From: frank <frankjuliei@comcast.net><BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll (Brake Roll)Description<BR>To: "' General pattern discussion '" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Date: Friday, October 16, 2009, 10:45 AM</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<DIV id=yiv561272999> In the current Master’s sequence, the Avalanche with 1 ½ snap (from the bottom)- The model is inverted and flies the first half of the outside loop. The aircraft is supposed to pitch up (pull) for the break, then perform the 1 ½ snap roll. In the Advanced Sequence Avalanche with a single snap , the aircraft is inverted at the top, but the pilot has to pitch (push) before the roll. In both situations, it seems likely that judges will have to look hard to see the break because of the altitude/location/climb of the model, no?.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Frank</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><B><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma"> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>rcmaster199@aol.com<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Friday, October 16, 2009 9:43 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll (Brake Roll)Description</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jerry Budd explained pretty well the fact that pattern planes are so lightly loaded that a large amount of force in pitch must exist to cause a stall. Stalls, accelerated and/or assymetric, I don't think are what happens in a pattern snap.</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I believe an assymetry in lift does however. Think of the the wing as two halves (fancy that) where one sides lifts the equivalent of its whole area and the other side only a small percentage. Neither panel is stalled per se....one simply lifts less than the other. Yaw will induce the differential lift once the wing has been loaded in pitch. Assymetric lift will cause the wing to autorotate in roll axis.....we accelerate that autorotation with ailerons (duh!!). Some planes will snap with yaw command alone once pitch loading has happened. Most pattern planes will not because, as Jerry pointed out, it doesn't take a whole lot of lift to keep a pattern plane flying</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My 2c</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT face=Arial color=black size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">MattK</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'"></SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'">-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Martin X. Moleski, SJ < moleski@canisius.edu ><BR>To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:43 am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Suggested New Snap Roll (Brake Roll) Description</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_0_905f6800-74da-4358-b0e3-a5e175f882e1>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">Keith Black wrote: <BR>> How about this definition: <BR> <BR>> At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a <BR>> definite break and separation from the <BR>> flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft <BR>> is supposed to be in a stalled <BR>> condition throughout the maneuver ... <BR> <BR>That what Vicente (and others) are arguing is a bad <BR>definition for our purposes. <BR> <BR>I agree with those who want to remove all references to <BR>stalling from the definition of the maneuver. <BR> <BR>The model must depart (break away) from all three <BR>axes. Saying that the first departure must be separated <BR>from the other two does not make good sense to me. <BR> <BR>Demonstrating the kind of "stall" that leads to a <BR>spin entry is very different from the assymetric stall <BR>required for autorotation--at least in my own understanding <BR>of what accelerated stalls are like. <BR> <BR> Marty <BR>_______________________________________________ <BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list <BR><A href="http://us.mc805.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org" target=_blank rel=nofollow>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR><A href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A> </SPAN></FONT><FONT color=black><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-color-alt: windowtext"></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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