[NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)

[Vicente "Vince" Bortone]

We are at least 4. 

Vicente "Vince" Bortone 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Oddino " < joddino @ socal . rr .com> 
To: "General pattern discussion" < nsrca -discussion at lists. nsrca .org> 
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 1:49:09 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central 
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC) 

I believe there are at least three of us that understand what stall   
and autorotation mean. 

Jim 


On Oct 16, 2009, at 8:11 AM, Ron Van Putte wrote: 

> Yes, I agree with the elimination of the autorotation /stall   
> requirement and describe the desired flight path, not how to achieve   
> it. 
> 
> Ron VP 
> 
> On Oct 16, 2009, at 9:41 AM, James Oddino wrote: 
> 
>> Ron, I agree completely with you and Jerry.  My point is we can get   
>> a similar airframe response at similar asymmetrical lift on the   
>> left side by using ailerons along with rudder and elevator.   
>> Autorotation refers to rolling induced by an unstable CL/alpha that   
>> occurs only on the right side.  There, as alpha increases lift   
>> decreases so the wing descends resulting in alpha increasing and so   
>> on.  On the rising wing, alpha is decreasing so lift is increasing   
>> so the wing keeps rising.  The result is a spontaneous, continuous   
>> roll. 
>> 
>> This is untrue on the left side but we can and do induce rotation   
>> with ailerons.  If we want to fix the rules we should probably get   
>> rid of the autorotation /stall requirement and describe the desired   
>> flight path, not how to achieve it.  Agree? 
>> 
>> Make sense? 
>> 
>> Jim 
>> 
>> 
>> On Oct 16, 2009, at 6:58 AM, Ron Van Putte wrote: 
>> 
>>> Jerry's point is that the airplane can't get to the portion of the   
>>> CL/alpha curve to the right, above the critical alpha.  Too many   
>>> Gs on the airplane at normal flying speed. 
>>> 
>>> Ron VP 
>>> 
>>> On Oct 16, 2009, at 12:36 AM, James Oddino wrote: 
>>> 
>>>> The way I see it, most of the folks think that the wing is   
>>>> stalled or it isn't.  This is not the case.  Stalled typically   
>>>> refers to the portion of the CL/alpha curve to the right, above   
>>>> the critical alpha.  The CL does not go to zero when alpha   
>>>> exceeds the critical 15 or so degrees but drops with a relatively   
>>>> low slope.  That means it is still providing lift.  It can also   
>>>> be at different values on each panel.  This is what Jerry was   
>>>> talking about when he referred to stalling the wing   
>>>> asymmetrically.  (See excerpt below). 
>>>> 
>>>> I submit we can create a similar asymmetrical Lift on the left   
>>>> side of the curve, below the critical angle and produce a SNAP   
>>>> ROLL with the application of ailerons.  This is probably not a   
>>>> true autorotation that would occur with rudder and elevator only   
>>>> if we were on the "stalled" side of the curve, but the resulting   
>>>> airframe response looks the same. 
>>>> 
>>>> I rest my case, Jim 
>>>> 
>>>> I am not an aeronautical engineer.  Where is Jim Alberico when we   
>>>> need him? 
>>>> 
>>>> On Oct 15, 2009, at 6:23 PM, Ron Van Putte wrote: 
>>>> 
>>>>> I was busy when this came in and didn't sit down to read it   
>>>>> until tonight.  I'm an aeronautical engineer and EVERYTHING   
>>>>> Jerry wrote made sense to me and I'm a picky engineer.  I hope   
>>>>> everyone was able to wade their way through it and understood   
>>>>> what Jerry wrote.  He used some technical stuff that may have   
>>>>> slowed some down, but it was presented in such a way that most R/ 
>>>>> C aerobatic pilots should understand the logic. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Well done Jerry. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ron Van Putte 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 14, 2009, at 5:12 AM, Budd Engineering wrote: 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> So what are we doing to make the plane present what appears to   
>>>>>> be a snap roll when we can't actually be stalling the wing   
>>>>>> asymmetrically to induce autorotation like many claim? 
>>>> 
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>>> 
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