<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>We are at least 4.<BR><BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From: "James Oddino" <joddino@socal.rr.com><BR>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 1:49:09 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] How I became an expert Snap Judge (TIC)<BR><BR>I believe there are at least three of us that understand what stall <BR>and autorotation mean.<BR><BR>Jim<BR><BR><BR>On Oct 16, 2009, at 8:11 AM, Ron Van Putte wrote:<BR><BR>> Yes, I agree with the elimination of the autorotation/stall <BR>> requirement and describe the desired flight path, not how to achieve <BR>> it.<BR>><BR>> Ron VP<BR>><BR>> On Oct 16, 2009, at 9:41 AM, James Oddino wrote:<BR>><BR>>> Ron, I agree completely with you and Jerry. My point is we can get <BR>>> a similar airframe response at similar asymmetrical lift on the <BR>>> left side by using ailerons along with rudder and elevator. <BR>>> Autorotation refers to rolling induced by an unstable CL/alpha that <BR>>> occurs only on the right side. There, as alpha increases lift <BR>>> decreases so the wing descends resulting in alpha increasing and so <BR>>> on. On the rising wing, alpha is decreasing so lift is increasing <BR>>> so the wing keeps rising. The result is a spontaneous, continuous <BR>>> roll.<BR>>><BR>>> This is untrue on the left side but we can and do induce rotation <BR>>> with ailerons. If we want to fix the rules we should probably get <BR>>> rid of the autorotation/stall requirement and describe the desired <BR>>> flight path, not how to achieve it. Agree?<BR>>><BR>>> Make sense?<BR>>><BR>>> Jim<BR>>><BR>>><BR>>> On Oct 16, 2009, at 6:58 AM, Ron Van Putte wrote:<BR>>><BR>>>> Jerry's point is that the airplane can't get to the portion of the <BR>>>> CL/alpha curve to the right, above the critical alpha. Too many <BR>>>> Gs on the airplane at normal flying speed.<BR>>>><BR>>>> Ron VP<BR>>>><BR>>>> On Oct 16, 2009, at 12:36 AM, James Oddino wrote:<BR>>>><BR>>>>> The way I see it, most of the folks think that the wing is <BR>>>>> stalled or it isn't. This is not the case. Stalled typically <BR>>>>> refers to the portion of the CL/alpha curve to the right, above <BR>>>>> the critical alpha. The CL does not go to zero when alpha <BR>>>>> exceeds the critical 15 or so degrees but drops with a relatively <BR>>>>> low slope. That means it is still providing lift. It can also <BR>>>>> be at different values on each panel. This is what Jerry was <BR>>>>> talking about when he referred to stalling the wing <BR>>>>> asymmetrically. (See excerpt below).<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> I submit we can create a similar asymmetrical Lift on the left <BR>>>>> side of the curve, below the critical angle and produce a SNAP <BR>>>>> ROLL with the application of ailerons. This is probably not a <BR>>>>> true autorotation that would occur with rudder and elevator only <BR>>>>> if we were on the "stalled" side of the curve, but the resulting <BR>>>>> airframe response looks the same.<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> I rest my case, Jim<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> I am not an aeronautical engineer. Where is Jim Alberico when we <BR>>>>> need him?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> On Oct 15, 2009, at 6:23 PM, Ron Van Putte wrote:<BR>>>>><BR>>>>>> I was busy when this came in and didn't sit down to read it <BR>>>>>> until tonight. I'm an aeronautical engineer and EVERYTHING <BR>>>>>> Jerry wrote made sense to me and I'm a picky engineer. I hope <BR>>>>>> everyone was able to wade their way through it and understood <BR>>>>>> what Jerry wrote. He used some technical stuff that may have <BR>>>>>> slowed some down, but it was presented in such a way that most R/ <BR>>>>>> C aerobatic pilots should understand the logic.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> Well done Jerry.<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> Ron Van Putte<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>> On Oct 14, 2009, at 5:12 AM, Budd Engineering wrote:<BR>>>>>><BR>>>>>>> So what are we doing to make the plane present what appears to <BR>>>>>>> be a snap roll when we can't actually be stalling the wing <BR>>>>>>> asymmetrically to induce autorotation like many claim?<BR>>>>><BR>>>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>>><BR>>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>>><BR>>> _______________________________________________<BR>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR>><BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>> NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<BR></div></body></html>