[NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: RE: Design Question

Wed Nov 11 03:22:52 AKST 2009

EXCEPT, Jay, when it is a one-off be-all, end-all, super pattern plane!!!  lol

At 07:14 AM 11/11/2009, you wrote:
>Ah, but there is a time to shoot the engineers and get the damn product out
>the door,,,,,
>
>Jay Marshall
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
>[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Pavlick
>Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:04 PM
>To: General pattern discussion
>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: RE: Design Question
>
>When it comes to Design + Engineering, there's no such thing as
>"overthinking". VBG
>
>John Pavlick
>http://www.idseng.com
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Matthew Frederick" <mjfrederick at cox.net>
>To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:04 PM
>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: RE: Design Question
>
>
> >I overheard Nat at a recent contest stating he felt the horizontal stab
> >placement relative to the wing chord is fairly irrelevant as long as it's
> >no further than 1.5 inches from the line, and anything beyond that will
> >cause undesirable results. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with that
> >assessment, just take it for what it's worth. I feel he over-thinks things
> >at times, but the true test is in the trimming and flying anyway.
> >
> > Matt
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Koenig, Tom" <Tom.Koenig at actewagl.com.au>
> > To: "'General pattern discussion'" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:13 PM
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: RE: Design Question
> >
> >
> >> Hi Jim and all,
> >>
> >> Jim.....enjoy those long winters, have a hot cup of coffee....and realy,
> >> I mean really, think about what Bryan tells you. It is a brain twister
> >> and can be confusing. But...he is right in everything he tells you. I
> >> realise there are people out there who do not agree with Bryan, and that
> >> is fine, but my advice is to have a read of his article-if only for
> >> interest.
> >>
> >> If I had the time, and my ability to express myself were better-I would
> >> try to explain some of my design ideas. But I simply suck at that-hence
> >> my initial response, just go for it.
> >>
> >> Another genius to ask(besides Bryan) would be Nat Penton...he will also
> >> make your head spin! A very learn'ed man indeed.
> >>
> >> Draw a line on a sheet of paper as your Datum, mark out 2 meters and go
> >> for it. Better still, use some CAD package.
> >>
> >> PS. Make it pretty-or you wont want to fly it!! Also-keep us informed how
>
> >> you are going. I certainly am interested in your project, maybe others
> >> are too.
> >>
> >> Tom
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
> >> shinden1 at cox.net
> >> Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 7:48 AM
> >> To: General pattern discussion
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: RE: Design Question
> >>
> >> Ok
> >> Bryan
> >> ---- shinden1 at cox.net wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > From: "J N Hiller" <jnhiller at earthlink.net>
> >>> > To: <shinden1 at cox.net>
> >>> > Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Design Question
> >>> > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:51:44 -0800
> >>> >
> >>> > Bryan, I find it hard to believe that vertical wing placement doesn't
> >>> > affect pitch trim. The wing especially a thick one contributes
> >>> > significantly to total drag and any offset between the center of drag
> >>> > and center of thrust would create a rotational moment that would need
> >>> > to be balanced with H-stab / elevator trim. Maybe it's insignificant
> >>> > compared to other factors. This is what I'm trying to understand.
> >>> > Yes CG is a significant contributor. I've been able to change vertical
>
> >>> > pitch by changing the CG and wing incidence, forcing a H-stab /
> >>> > elevator trim change. CG placement is a whole different issue as is
> >>> > weight in the extremities such as wing tips, nose and tail.
> >>> > Thanks.
> >>> > I'm really interested in this aspect of pattern, good thing, winters
> >>> > are long here.
> >>> > Jim
> >>> >
> >>> > -----Original Message-----
> >>> > From: shinden1 at cox.net [mailto:shinden1 at cox.net]
> >>> > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 7:14 PM
> >>> > To: General pattern discussion
> >>> > Cc: J N Hiller
> >>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Design Question
> >>> >
> >>> > Hi Jim
> >>> > The vertical wing placement has no effect on pitch trim,,NONE !
> >>> > what does is,the incidence and C/g. Don`t even worry about it.
> >>> > However it will effect  Dihedra you will need to move the wing after
> >>> > the test flights. or rebuild a new one with the right dihedral or, Mix
>
> >>> > it out.
> >>> > Rudder angles ,sweep, or position ,has a tiny effect ,so little it`s
> >>> > not worth worrying about .draw something that looks good.
> >>> > Just build your airplane and adjust to what it does not do well.
> >>> > your not going to hit it on the first try,but the effort will be worth
>
> >>> > the Learning and enjoyment, in a self designed model.
> >>> > There are so many dynamics involved in designing your first airplane
> >>> > you cant possibly think of them all on the first attempt.
> >>> > just  have fun and build a light pretty model.
> >>> > Bryan
> >>> > ---- J N Hiller <jnhiller at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>> > > Thanks Lance. I don't want to stray too far from proven
> >>> > > relationships but
> >>> > > understand there are many variables rendering each design different.
> >>> > > I presently have the wing located 1/2" below a centerline through
> >>> > > the H-stab
> >>> > > and engine centerline. The stab is about 1/2" above the tail tube
> >>> > > centerline
> >>> > > and positioned about 1/4 the height of the V-stab.
> >>> > > Both the wing and stab will be adjustable and previsions are
> >>> > > included for
> >>> > > changing thrust angles. Tweaking these angles should effectively
> >>> > > change the
> >>> > > flying height of the tail but the wing offset remains about the
> >>> > > same.
> >>> > > Other than changing the vertical center of drag what are the pros
> >>> > > and cons
> >>> > > associated with positioning the wing higher or lower. I'm thinking
> >>> > > the
> >>> > > vertical center of drag relative to the thrust line can contribute
> >>> > > significantly to pitch trim. Is it a major influence?
> >>> > > Before beginning to cut parts it occurred to me that the design /
> >>> > > construction detail offers considerable leeway in vertical wing
> >>> > > placement,
> >>> > > maybe as much as an inch higher or lower from the -1/2 presently
> >>> > > planned and
> >>> > > changing the wing location later will require major surgery.
> >>> > > I guess what I'm really looking for is more understanding of the
> >>> > > effect
> >>> > > vertical wing placement has on pitch trim. I guess I asked the wrong
> >>> > > question. Any thoughts on this will be helpful.
> >>> > > Thanks
> >>> > > Jim
> >>> > >
> >>> > > -----Original Message-----
> >>> > > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> >>> > > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of
> >>> > > patterndude at tx.rr.com
> >>> > > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 2:38 PM
> >>> > > To: General pattern discussion
> >>> > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Design Question
> >>> > >
> >>> > > That's all?  There a number of design issues we face in pattern
> >>> > > where
> >>> > > there's little documentation readily available. This is one, KE
> >>> > > flight is
> >>> > > another, wing incidence and engine thrustline effects in 4 axis
> >>> > > flight is
> >>> > > another. The more I think about it the more I think of.
> >>> > >   There's no one answer and anything between the chordline and
> >>> > > thrustline
> >>> > > can be made to work by changing rudder shape and incidence. I
> >>> > > settled on a
> >>> > > quarter inch above the chordline and then adjusted the rudder to
> >>> > > allow a
> >>> > > trim incidence near zero so inverted flight is more effortless.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Lance
> >>> > > AeroSlave
> >>> > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> >>> > >
> >>> > > -----Original Message-----
> >>> > > From: "J N Hiller" <jnhiller at earthlink.net>
> >>> > > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 09:36:13
> >>> > > To: NSRCA Mailing List<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> >>> > > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Design Question
> >>> > >
> >>> > > Hello all.
> >>> > > Here's a topic for discussion that I'm personally very interested in
>
> >>> > > and may
> >>> > > be of interest to others.
> >>> > > I'm working up a new pattern design and would appreciate comments
> >>> > > regarding
> >>> > > the vertical placement of the wing and thrust line relative to the
> >>> > > stab
> >>> > > centerline.
> >>> > > I not only would like to know what the vertical offset is on modern
> >>> > > pattern
> >>> > > designs but how the vertical location affects flight trim, and why?
> >>> > > Thanks all.
> >>> > > Jim Hiller
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > > _______________________________________________
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> >>> > > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >>> > > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
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> >>> > >
> >>> > > _______________________________________________
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> >>> >
> >>>
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