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<font size=3>EXCEPT, Jay, when it is a one-off be-all, end-all, super
pattern plane!!! lol<br><br>
At 07:14 AM 11/11/2009, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Ah, but there is a time to shoot
the engineers and get the damn product out<br>
the door,,,,,<br><br>
Jay Marshall<br><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<br>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of John
Pavlick<br>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:04 PM<br>
To: General pattern discussion<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: RE: Design Question<br><br>
When it comes to Design + Engineering, there's no such thing as <br>
"overthinking". VBG<br><br>
John Pavlick<br>
<a href="http://www.idseng.com/" eudora="autourl">
http://www.idseng.com</a><br><br>
----- Original Message ----- <br>
From: "Matthew Frederick" <mjfrederick@cox.net><br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 7:04 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: RE: Design Question<br><br>
<br>
>I overheard Nat at a recent contest stating he felt the horizontal
stab <br>
>placement relative to the wing chord is fairly irrelevant as long as
it's <br>
>no further than 1.5 inches from the line, and anything beyond that
will <br>
>cause undesirable results. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with
that <br>
>assessment, just take it for what it's worth. I feel he over-thinks
things <br>
>at times, but the true test is in the trimming and flying
anyway.<br>
><br>
> Matt<br>
> ----- Original Message ----- <br>
> From: "Koenig, Tom"
<Tom.Koenig@actewagl.com.au><br>
> To: "'General pattern discussion'"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 3:13 PM<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: RE: Design Question<br>
><br>
><br>
>> Hi Jim and all,<br>
>><br>
>> Jim.....enjoy those long winters, have a hot cup of
coffee....and realy, <br>
>> I mean really, think about what Bryan tells you. It is a brain
twister <br>
>> and can be confusing. But...he is right in everything he tells
you. I <br>
>> realise there are people out there who do not agree with Bryan,
and that <br>
>> is fine, but my advice is to have a read of his article-if only
for <br>
>> interest.<br>
>><br>
>> If I had the time, and my ability to express myself were
better-I would <br>
>> try to explain some of my design ideas. But I simply suck at
that-hence <br>
>> my initial response, just go for it.<br>
>><br>
>> Another genius to ask(besides Bryan) would be Nat Penton...he
will also <br>
>> make your head spin! A very learn'ed man indeed.<br>
>><br>
>> Draw a line on a sheet of paper as your Datum, mark out 2 meters
and go <br>
>> for it. Better still, use some CAD package.<br>
>><br>
>> PS. Make it pretty-or you wont want to fly it!! Also-keep us
informed how<br><br>
>> you are going. I certainly am interested in your project, maybe
others <br>
>> are too.<br>
>><br>
>> Tom<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> -----Original Message-----<br>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org <br>
>>
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>] On Behalf Of <br>
>> shinden1@cox.net<br>
>> Sent: Wednesday, 11 November 2009 7:48 AM<br>
>> To: General pattern discussion<br>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Fwd: RE: Design Question<br>
>><br>
>> Ok<br>
>> Bryan<br>
>> ---- shinden1@cox.net wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> > From: "J N Hiller"
<jnhiller@earthlink.net><br>
>>> > To: <shinden1@cox.net><br>
>>> > Subject: RE: [NSRCA-discussion] Design Question<br>
>>> > Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:51:44 -0800<br>
>>> ><br>
>>> > Bryan, I find it hard to believe that vertical wing
placement doesn't <br>
>>> > affect pitch trim. The wing especially a thick one
contributes <br>
>>> > significantly to total drag and any offset between the
center of drag <br>
>>> > and center of thrust would create a rotational moment
that would need <br>
>>> > to be balanced with H-stab / elevator trim. Maybe it's
insignificant <br>
>>> > compared to other factors. This is what I'm trying to
understand.<br>
>>> > Yes CG is a significant contributor. I've been able to
change vertical<br><br>
>>> > pitch by changing the CG and wing incidence, forcing a
H-stab / <br>
>>> > elevator trim change. CG placement is a whole different
issue as is <br>
>>> > weight in the extremities such as wing tips, nose and
tail.<br>
>>> > Thanks.<br>
>>> > I'm really interested in this aspect of pattern, good
thing, winters <br>
>>> > are long here.<br>
>>> > Jim<br>
>>> ><br>
>>> > -----Original Message-----<br>
>>> > From: shinden1@cox.net
[<a href="mailto:shinden1@cox.net" eudora="autourl">
mailto:shinden1@cox.net</a>]<br>
>>> > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 7:14 PM<br>
>>> > To: General pattern discussion<br>
>>> > Cc: J N Hiller<br>
>>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Design Question<br>
>>> ><br>
>>> > Hi Jim<br>
>>> > The vertical wing placement has no effect on pitch
trim,,NONE !<br>
>>> > what does is,the incidence and C/g. Don`t even worry
about it.<br>
>>> > However it will effect Dihedra you will need to
move the wing after <br>
>>> > the test flights. or rebuild a new one with the right
dihedral or, Mix<br><br>
>>> > it out.<br>
>>> > Rudder angles ,sweep, or position ,has a tiny effect
,so little it`s <br>
>>> > not worth worrying about .draw something that looks
good.<br>
>>> > Just build your airplane and adjust to what it does not
do well.<br>
>>> > your not going to hit it on the first try,but the
effort will be worth<br><br>
>>> > the Learning and enjoyment, in a self designed
model.<br>
>>> > There are so many dynamics involved in designing your
first airplane<br>
>>> > you cant possibly think of them all on the first
attempt.<br>
>>> > just have fun and build a light pretty
model.<br>
>>> > Bryan<br>
>>> > ---- J N Hiller <jnhiller@earthlink.net>
wrote:<br>
>>> > > Thanks Lance. I don't want to stray too far from
proven <br>
>>> > > relationships but<br>
>>> > > understand there are many variables rendering each
design different.<br>
>>> > > I presently have the wing located 1/2" below
a centerline through <br>
>>> > > the H-stab<br>
>>> > > and engine centerline. The stab is about 1/2"
above the tail tube <br>
>>> > > centerline<br>
>>> > > and positioned about 1/4 the height of the
V-stab.<br>
>>> > > Both the wing and stab will be adjustable and
previsions are <br>
>>> > > included for<br>
>>> > > changing thrust angles. Tweaking these angles
should effectively <br>
>>> > > change the<br>
>>> > > flying height of the tail but the wing offset
remains about the <br>
>>> > > same.<br>
>>> > > Other than changing the vertical center of drag
what are the pros <br>
>>> > > and cons<br>
>>> > > associated with positioning the wing higher or
lower. I'm thinking <br>
>>> > > the<br>
>>> > > vertical center of drag relative to the thrust
line can contribute<br>
>>> > > significantly to pitch trim. Is it a major
influence?<br>
>>> > > Before beginning to cut parts it occurred to me
that the design /<br>
>>> > > construction detail offers considerable leeway in
vertical wing <br>
>>> > > placement,<br>
>>> > > maybe as much as an inch higher or lower from the
-1/2 presently <br>
>>> > > planned and<br>
>>> > > changing the wing location later will require
major surgery.<br>
>>> > > I guess what I'm really looking for is more
understanding of the <br>
>>> > > effect<br>
>>> > > vertical wing placement has on pitch trim. I guess
I asked the wrong<br>
>>> > > question. Any thoughts on this will be
helpful.<br>
>>> > > Thanks<br>
>>> > > Jim<br>
>>> > ><br>
>>> > > -----Original Message-----<br>
>>> > > From:
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org<br>
>>> > >
[<a href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</a>]On Behalf Of<br>
>>> > > patterndude@tx.rr.com<br>
>>> > > Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 2:38 PM<br>
>>> > > To: General pattern discussion<br>
>>> > > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Design
Question<br>
>>> > ><br>
>>> > > That's all? There a number of design issues
we face in pattern <br>
>>> > > where<br>
>>> > > there's little documentation readily available.
This is one, KE <br>
>>> > > flight is<br>
>>> > > another, wing incidence and engine thrustline
effects in 4 axis <br>
>>> > > flight is<br>
>>> > > another. The more I think about it the more I
think of.<br>
>>> > > There's no one answer and anything
between the chordline and <br>
>>> > > thrustline<br>
>>> > > can be made to work by changing rudder shape and
incidence. I <br>
>>> > > settled on a<br>
>>> > > quarter inch above the chordline and then adjusted
the rudder to <br>
>>> > > allow a<br>
>>> > > trim incidence near zero so inverted flight is
more effortless.<br>
>>> > ><br>
>>> > > Lance<br>
>>> > > AeroSlave<br>
>>> > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T<br>
>>> > ><br>
>>> > > -----Original Message-----<br>
>>> > > From: "J N Hiller"
<jnhiller@earthlink.net><br>
>>> > > Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 09:36:13<br>
>>> > > To: NSRCA Mailing
List<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
>>> > > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Design Question<br>
>>> > ><br>
>>> > > Hello all.<br>
>>> > > Here's a topic for discussion that I'm personally
very interested in<br><br>
>>> > > and may<br>
>>> > > be of interest to others.<br>
>>> > > I'm working up a new pattern design and would
appreciate comments <br>
>>> > > regarding<br>
>>> > > the vertical placement of the wing and thrust line
relative to the <br>
>>> > > stab<br>
>>> > > centerline.<br>
>>> > > I not only would like to know what the vertical
offset is on modern <br>
>>> > > pattern<br>
>>> > > designs but how the vertical location affects
flight trim, and why?<br>
>>> > > Thanks all.<br>
>>> > > Jim Hiller<br>
>>> > ><br>
>>> > ><br>
>>> > ><br>
>>> > >
_______________________________________________<br>
>>> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
>>> > > NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
>>> > >
<a href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion" eudora="autourl">
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
>>> > >
_______________________________________________<br>
>>> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
>>> > > NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
>>> > >
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http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
>>> > ><br>
>>> > >
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>>> > > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
>>> > > NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
>>> > >
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http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</a><br>
>>> ><br>
>>><br>
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