[NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Sun May 10 19:49:44 AKDT 2009

Get better or crash?

Ron

On May 10, 2009, at 10:42 PM, John Pavlick wrote:

> Ron,
> I agree. That maneuver is fine for Masters class. The point I was  
> trying to make was that if Masters guys are challenged by a  
> maneuver like this, what do you think will happen to an  
> Intermediate pilot when faced with a similar situation?
>
> John Pavlick
> http://www.idseng.com
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Van Putte" <vanputte at cox.net>
> To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 7:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
>
> That's what's called a "personal problem".  I find that the Two of
> Two 1/2 Rolls, Opposite is very difficult to keep in the box and,
> using the logic I've sometimes seen here, it should be removed from
> the Master class maneuver schedule.  It won't and shouldn't.
>
> Ron
>
> On May 10, 2009, at 5:34 PM, Archie Stafford wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>>
>>
>> In that post George is referring to the 3 horizontal rolls that   
>> used to
>> be in what is now Intermediate.  It really wasn’t that hard  to  
>> fit in the
>> box as long as you started early.  The problem that  most people  
>> have is
>> they wait way too long to start the rolling stuff.
>>
>>
>>
>> Arch
>>
>>
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
>> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of John Pavlick
>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 3:18 PM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>
>>
>>
>> What schedule are we talking about? I thought it was the Masters
>> schedule.
>>
>>
>>
>> John Pavlick
>> http://www.idseng.com
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: George W.Kennie
>>
>> To: General pattern discussion
>>
>> Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 2:18 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John,
>>
>>
>>
>> Remember, the maneuver is performed after a previous box exit.   
>> So,  you
>> enter the box, have all day to set up for it, and you're only   
>> doing  1 &
>> 1/2  rolls either side of center. I've seen guys use  this much space
>> doing the current 2 point with a significant  hesitation.
>>
>>
>>
>> Archie is right on the money. That's the reason I use the old, old
>> Intermediate schedule to train newbies. If I can get 'em thru  
>> this  thing,
>> then the current schedules are duck soup for them.  It's  like  
>> practicing
>> the P-09 and then going to a contest and flying  Sportsman.
>>
>>
>>
>> G.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: John Pavlick
>>
>> To: General pattern discussion
>>
>> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 10:18 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>
>>
>>
>> Georgie,
>>
>> Did you ever see anyone REALLY grease that maneuver? I haven't.  
>> It  ALWAYS
>> looks rushed. And these are Masters pilots. Big difference   
>> between them
>> and Intermediate pilots. The only way it would work is  if both
>> turnarounds (before and after the maneuver) were something  like a  
>> stall
>> turn or a half square loop. Anything else would be  tough for an
>> Intermediate pilot.
>>
>>
>>
>> John Pavlick
>> http://www.idseng.com
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: George W.Kennie
>>
>> To: General pattern discussion
>>
>> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 9:21 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Isn't it amazing that we have combination maneuvers like Two of Two
>> folowed by a Slow Roll opposite all on one line, including entry   
>> and exit
>> lines, and people still think that you can't get three   
>> consecutive rolls
>> in the box.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stymies me !
>>
>>
>>
>> Who else?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Glen Watson
>>
>> To: 'General pattern discussion'
>>
>> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:02 PM
>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>
>>
>>
>> Chuck,
>>
>>
>>
>> In the early nineties when I got started in pattern the Sportsman
>> sequence now known as Intermediate had three rolls.  I flew  
>> 2cycle  then
>> (Saphire, LA-1) and had no problem fitting the maneuver in the   
>> box as
>> well as centering.  I believe this built many early skill  sets  
>> that have
>> helped me in the long run over the years.
>>
>>
>>
>> I’m of the opinion pattern sequences should present challenges to   
>> ones
>> current skill set.  Without a challenge why do pattern at all.
>>
>>
>>
>> Glen
>>
>>
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
>> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Hochhalter
>> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 11:15 AM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyone notice how much airpace 3 rolls takes in FAI... I don’t   
>> think they
>> lower class has the box management skills to fit 3 rolls  into the  
>> box,
>> let alone be ready to center them.
>>
>>
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>>
>>
>> From: ronlock at comcast.net
>>
>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 9:25 PM
>>
>> To: General pattern discussion
>>
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>
>>
>>
>> Re comments below-
>> I believe part of reason the current Intermediate sequence has  
>> two  rolls,
>> and not three, is-
>> Figuring two rolls are challenge and training enough for most
>> intermediate pilots -
>> And two is enough for judging-   Particularly, if you see two going
>> badly, not many of us
>> want to see a third.
>>
>> Also below - having to move out of Sportsman after first year   
>> because of
>> beating 4 other pilots -
>> That is already fixed.  The 2009 rule  "..flier must move out of
>> Sportsman class at the end of he calendar year of his/her second or
>> subsequent year of participation if he/she places first or second   
>> and
>> above at least 4 other fliers..."
>>
>> Ron Lockhart
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ron Hansen" <rcpilot at wowway.com>
>> To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 10:03:36 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>
>> I’ve been flying intermediate for about 3 years going on 4.  The  two
>> rolls are still kicking my you know what.  I can do one slow  roll  
>> and one
>> 4 pt roll but not two consecutive rolls.  I’m certain  that the  
>> average
>> advance pilot would really have trouble with 3  rolls.  I see a  
>> lot of
>> intermediate, advanced and sometimes even  masters pilots almost  
>> loose
>> airplanes on the horizontal rolling  maneuvers.  They shouldn’t be
>> underestimated.
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree with Mark, lets make advancement at all levels a   
>> guideline.  I
>> had to move up from sportsman to intermediate after  my first year in
>> sportsman because I beat 4 other pilots.  I was  flying a Kaos and  
>> the
>> other pilots were all flying their 1st  contests with trainers.   
>> They had
>> no chance.  In the end I’m glade  I moved up but at the time it  
>> made me
>> real nervous.  I was so  determined to fly pattern that I decided  
>> to give
>> it the old college  try in intermediate.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think Advance could use a few more maneuvers that exit inverted.
>> Otherwise, I believe all the sequences are pretty good.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
>> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Richard Lewis
>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 4:38 PM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a provision in the current rule set to accomodate these
>> situations, see 8.1.2 of the competition regulations....
>>
>>
>>
>> Richard
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "jeffghughes at comcast.net" <jeffghughes at comcast.net>
>> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 3:30:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> I understand completely, I moved up to advanced, then my daughter   
>> got
>> sick and I've been to one contest in 4 years. My flying has   
>> regressed,
>> and my confidence along with it.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
>> To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 2:52:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>
>> I know you’re joking some Bob, but I think you’re actually a great
>> example of someone that was able to fly a lot, and progressed  nicely
>> through the system, but then when you got to Masters…a time  when you
>> really need to practice even more to be competitive, your  job  
>> suddenly
>> changed,  home life became more complex, and you’re  lucky to fly 10
>> practice flights a year outside of contests.   Your  experience  
>> and skill
>> would allow you to be competitive in Advanced,  without dominating  
>> and
>> likely have a lot more fun being a spoiler  to that crowd, rather  
>> than
>> trying to fly masters without hardly  even knowing the pattern.
>>
>>
>>
>> You’re the perfect candidate for someone that should be able to   
>> choose
>> where they fly (which pattern) and have the most enjoyment.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-
>> discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Bob Kane
>> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 2:40 PM
>> To: General pattern discussion
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>
>>
>>
>> Hey, I resemble that remark . . . . . . .
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob Kane
>> getterflash at yahoo.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "jeffghughes at comcast.net" <jeffghughes at comcast.net>
>> To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>> Cc: Don Ramsey <don.ramsey at suddenlink.net>
>> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 12:17:58 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>>
>> This is all pretty interesting. From my perspective, I didn't    
>> really
>> care who beat me when I was in intermediate or advanced. I  just  
>> knew that
>> I was seeing the skill level necessary to win. While  it's nice to  
>> win a
>> trophy in the lower classes, I understood I  wasn't competing  
>> against the
>> best pilots anyway.  From what I've  seen there is a huge  
>> variation of
>> talent within a class anyway.  I've seen Masters pilots fly that  
>> wouldn't
>> win in advanced if they  bumped back down (maybe not even in
>> intermediate). People move up  for all kinds of reasons unrelated  
>> to skill
>> level.  It's also  interesting that we talk about using each class to
>> improve our  flying until we get to Masters, then it appears  
>> nobody wants
>> to  improve to FAI.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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