[NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
John Gayer
jgghome at comcast.net
Sun May 10 19:23:06 AKDT 2009
It appears these days that sport fliers do not do consecutive horizontal
rolls. At best, they will point the nose up 45-90 degrees and do a few
just using ailerons. This is the experience that new entrants to pattern
bring to the table. There is no concept anymore of learning as a sport
flyer to do horizontal rolls at a roll rate that allows appropriate
elevator corrections to be made.
What I see in Sportsman and early intermediate is "get the nose up a
bit, bang the ailerons and hope you make it through before the nose is
pointing at the ground"
You can get away with this, sort of, for one roll and sometimes two, but
you will not get through three without exiting with a drastic recovery.
So, just because we can demonstrate fitting three, four or even five
rolls in the box, does not mean that these beginning pattern flyers can
duplicate your results.
The real question is why the sport flyers have gotten so far removed
from flying anything resembling standard aerobatic manuevers? When was
the last time you saw someone besides a pattern flyer do an 8 point
roll, cuban eight, three consecutive loops? Have pattern, and even IMAC
for that matter, become so marginalized that noone gives a hoot what we
are up to or try to fly some of the maneuvers we perform on a regular basis?
I know I could do a centered three horizontal rolls years before I even
thought about entering a pattern contest. I just believed flying
aerobatic maneuvers was part of becoming an accomplished RC pilot. Times
change I guess- that was 40 years ago.
John
Bill Glaze wrote:
> Amazes me too, Georgie. Practicing today, just for fun, I did 4
> rolls, after a stall turn, and then entered a half square loop; had
> plenty room to spare,and at less than 150 meters out.. When we were
> doing the 3 rolls before I recall some people objected not about the
> space required, but that the 3 rolls were "too difficult" and "too
> dangerous." I'd sure like to know what happens between the second and
> third rolls that puts a huge danger factor at the end of the
> maneuver. I've looked for the boogie man, and just can't seem to find
> him.
> Bill
>
> ----- Original Message ----- *From:* George W.Kennie
> <mailto:geobet4 at verizon.net>
> *To:* General pattern discussion
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 09, 2009 9:21 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
>
> Isn't it amazing that we have combination maneuvers like Two of
> Two folowed by a Slow Roll opposite all on one line, including
> entry and exit lines, and people still think that you can't get
> three consecutive rolls in the box.
>
> Stymies me !
>
> Who else?
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Glen Watson <mailto:ghwatson at comcast.net>
> *To:* 'General pattern discussion'
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:02 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
> Chuck,
>
>
>
> In the early nineties when I got started in pattern the
> Sportsman sequence now known as Intermediate had three rolls.
> I flew 2cycle then (Saphire, LA-1) and had no problem fitting
> the maneuver in the box as well as centering. I believe this
> built many early skill sets that have helped me in the long
> run over the years.
>
>
>
> I'm of the opinion pattern sequences should present challenges
> to ones current skill set. Without a challenge why do pattern
> at all.
>
>
>
> Glen
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf
> Of *Chuck Hochhalter
> *Sent:* Saturday, May 09, 2009 11:15 AM
> *To:* General pattern discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
>
>
> Anyone notice how much airpace 3 rolls takes in FAI... I don't
> think they lower class has the box management skills to fit 3
> rolls into the box, let alone be ready to center them.
>
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> *From:* ronlock at comcast.net <mailto:ronlock at comcast.net>
>
> *Sent:* Friday, May 08, 2009 9:25 PM
>
> *To:* General pattern discussion
> <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
>
>
> Re comments below-
> I believe part of reason the current Intermediate sequence has
> two rolls, and not three, is-
> Figuring two rolls are challenge and training enough for most
> intermediate pilots -
> And two is enough for judging- Particularly, if you see two
> going badly, not many of us
> want to see a third.
>
> Also below - having to move out of Sportsman after first year
> because of beating 4 other pilots -
> That is already fixed. The 2009 rule "..flier must move out
> of Sportsman class at the end of he calendar year of his/her
> second or subsequent year of participation if he/she places
> first or second and above at least 4 other fliers..."
>
> Ron Lockhart
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Hansen" <rcpilot at wowway.com>
> To: "General pattern discussion"
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 10:03:36 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
> I've been flying intermediate for about 3 years going on 4.
> The two rolls are still kicking my you know what. I can do
> one slow roll and one 4 pt roll but not two consecutive rolls.
> I'm certain that the average advance pilot would really have
> trouble with 3 rolls. I see a lot of intermediate, advanced
> and sometimes even masters pilots almost loose airplanes on
> the horizontal rolling maneuvers. They shouldn't be
> underestimated.
>
>
>
> I agree with Mark, lets make advancement at all levels a
> guideline. I had to move up from sportsman to intermediate
> after my first year in sportsman because I beat 4 other
> pilots. I was flying a Kaos and the other pilots were all
> flying their 1^st contests with trainers. They had no
> chance. In the end I'm glade I moved up but at the time it
> made me real nervous. I was so determined to fly pattern that
> I decided to give it the old college try in intermediate.
>
>
>
> I think Advance could use a few more maneuvers that exit
> inverted. Otherwise, I believe all the sequences are pretty good.
>
>
>
> Ron
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf
> Of *Richard Lewis
> *Sent:* Friday, May 08, 2009 4:38 PM
> *To:* General pattern discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
>
>
> There is a provision in the current rule set to accomodate
> these situations, see 8.1.2 of the competition regulations....
>
>
>
> Richard
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* "jeffghughes at comcast.net" <jeffghughes at comcast.net>
> *To:* General pattern discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Sent:* Friday, May 8, 2009 3:30:24 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
> Bob,
>
> I understand completely, I moved up to advanced, then my
> daughter got sick and I've been to one contest in 4 years. My
> flying has regressed, and my confidence along with it.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
> To: "General pattern discussion"
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 2:52:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
> I know you're joking some Bob, but I think you're actually a
> great example of someone that was able to fly a lot, and
> progressed nicely through the system, but then when you got to
> Masters...a time when you really need to practice even more to
> be competitive, your job suddenly changed, home life became
> more complex, and you're lucky to fly 10 practice flights a
> year outside of contests. Your experience and skill would
> allow you to be competitive in Advanced, without dominating
> and likely have a lot more fun being a spoiler to that crowd,
> rather than trying to fly masters without hardly even knowing
> the pattern.
>
>
>
> You're the perfect candidate for someone that should be able
> to choose where they fly (which pattern) and have the most
> enjoyment.
>
>
>
> *From:* nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] *On Behalf
> Of *Bob Kane
> *Sent:* Friday, May 08, 2009 2:40 PM
> *To:* General pattern discussion
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
>
>
> Hey, I resemble that remark . . . . . . .
>
>
>
> Bob Kane
> getterflash at yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* "jeffghughes at comcast.net" <jeffghughes at comcast.net>
> *To:* General pattern discussion
> <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> *Cc:* Don Ramsey <don.ramsey at suddenlink.net>
> *Sent:* Friday, May 8, 2009 12:17:58 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System
>
> This is all pretty interesting. From my perspective, I didn't
> really care who beat me when I was in intermediate or
> advanced. I just knew that I was seeing the skill level
> necessary to win. While it's nice to win a trophy in the lower
> classes, I understood I wasn't competing against the best
> pilots anyway. From what I've seen there is a huge variation
> of talent within a class anyway. I've seen Masters pilots fly
> that wouldn't win in advanced if they bumped back down (maybe
> not even in intermediate). People move up for all kinds of
> reasons unrelated to skill level. It's also interesting that
> we talk about using each class to improve our flying until we
> get to Masters, then it appears nobody wants to improve to FAI.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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