[NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Sun May 10 19:11:14 AKDT 2009

Bill,

The boogie man is that you actually have to FLY the plane through the 3rd
roll.  That has been my problem with 2 rolls is that you can basically put
the nose 5 degrees high and shove the stick over and do 2 rolls.  When you
add a 3rd one you actually have to learn to use the elevator.  I have heard
of people having problems doing 3 rolls and it being an "airplane killer,"
but I never saw a lost airplane when I was at contests and when I was flying
the old sequences.  Frankly if you are doing 3 rolls and you can't recover
from a problem on the 3rd roll, then you need to be flying higher.  It was
definitely a maneuver that was great as an essential building block in
pattern.

Arch

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Bill Glaze
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2009 9:23 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Amazes me too, Georgie.  Practicing today, just for fun, I did 4 rolls,
after a stall turn, and then entered a half square loop; had plenty room to
spare,and at less than 150 meters out..  When we were doing the 3 rolls
before I recall some people objected not about the space required, but that
the 3 rolls were "too difficult" and "too dangerous."  I'd sure like to know
what happens between the second and third rolls that puts a huge danger
factor at the end of the maneuver.  I've looked for the boogie man, and just
can't seem to find him.

Bill

----- Original Message ----- From: George W.Kennie
<mailto:geobet4 at verizon.net>  

To: General pattern discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 9:21 PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Isn't it amazing that we have combination maneuvers like Two of Two folowed
by a Slow Roll opposite all on one line, including entry and exit lines, and
people still think that you can't get three consecutive rolls in the box.

Stymies me !

Who else? 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Glen Watson <mailto:ghwatson at comcast.net>  

To: 'General pattern discussion' <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:02 PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Chuck,

In the early nineties when I got started in pattern the Sportsman sequence
now known as Intermediate had three rolls.  I flew 2cycle then (Saphire,
LA-1) and had no problem fitting the maneuver in the box as well as
centering.  I believe this built many early skill sets that have helped me
in the long run over the years.

I'm of the opinion pattern sequences should present challenges to ones
current skill set.  Without a challenge why do pattern at all.

Glen

  _____  

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Chuck
Hochhalter
Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 11:15 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Anyone notice how much airpace 3 rolls takes in FAI... I don't think they
lower class has the box management skills to fit 3 rolls into the box, let
alone be ready to center them.

Chuck

From: ronlock at comcast.net 

Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 9:25 PM

To: General pattern discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Re comments below-
I believe part of reason the current Intermediate sequence has two rolls,
and not three, is-
Figuring two rolls are challenge and training enough for most intermediate
pilots -
And two is enough for judging-   Particularly, if you see two going badly,
not many of us
want to see a third.

Also below - having to move out of Sportsman after first year because of
beating 4 other pilots -
That is already fixed.  The 2009 rule  "..flier must move out of Sportsman
class at the end of he calendar year of his/her second or subsequent year of
participation if he/she places first or second and above at least 4 other
fliers..."

Ron Lockhart

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Hansen" <rcpilot at wowway.com>
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 10:03:36 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

I've been flying intermediate for about 3 years going on 4.  The two rolls
are still kicking my you know what.  I can do one slow roll and one 4 pt
roll but not two consecutive rolls.  I'm certain that the average advance
pilot would really have trouble with 3 rolls.  I see a lot of intermediate,
advanced and sometimes even masters pilots almost loose airplanes on the
horizontal rolling maneuvers.  They shouldn't be underestimated.

I agree with Mark, lets make advancement at all levels a guideline.  I had
to move up from sportsman to intermediate after my first year in sportsman
because I beat 4 other pilots.  I was flying a Kaos and the other pilots
were all flying their 1st contests with trainers.  They had no chance.  In
the end I'm glade I moved up but at the time it made me real nervous.  I was
so determined to fly pattern that I decided to give it the old college try
in intermediate.

I think Advance could use a few more maneuvers that exit inverted.
Otherwise, I believe all the sequences are pretty good.

Ron 

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Richard Lewis
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 4:38 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

There is a provision in the current rule set to accomodate these situations,
see 8.1.2 of the competition regulations....

Richard

  _____  

From: "jeffghughes at comcast.net" <jeffghughes at comcast.net>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 3:30:24 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Bob,

I understand completely, I moved up to advanced, then my daughter got sick
and I've been to one contest in 4 years. My flying has regressed, and my
confidence along with it. 

Jeff

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm at paragon-inc.com>
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 2:52:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

I know you're joking some Bob, but I think you're actually a great example
of someone that was able to fly a lot, and progressed nicely through the
system, but then when you got to Masters.a time when you really need to
practice even more to be competitive, your job suddenly changed,  home life
became more complex, and you're lucky to fly 10 practice flights a year
outside of contests.   Your experience and skill would allow you to be
competitive in Advanced, without dominating and likely have a lot more fun
being a spoiler to that crowd, rather than trying to fly masters without
hardly even knowing the pattern.

You're the perfect candidate for someone that should be able to choose where
they fly (which pattern) and have the most enjoyment.  

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Bob Kane
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 2:40 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

Hey, I resemble that remark . . . . . . .

Bob Kane
getterflash at yahoo.com

  _____  

From: "jeffghughes at comcast.net" <jeffghughes at comcast.net>
To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Cc: Don Ramsey <don.ramsey at suddenlink.net>
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 12:17:58 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System

This is all pretty interesting. From my perspective, I didn't  really care
who beat me when I was in intermediate or advanced. I just knew that I was
seeing the skill level necessary to win. While it's nice to win a trophy in
the lower classes, I understood I wasn't competing against the best pilots
anyway.  From what I've seen there is a huge variation of talent within a
class anyway. I've seen Masters pilots fly that wouldn't win in advanced if
they bumped back down (maybe not even in intermediate). People move up for
all kinds of reasons unrelated to skill level.  It's also interesting that
we talk about using each class to improve our flying until we get to
Masters, then it appears nobody wants to improve to FAI. 

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