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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bill,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The boogie man is that you actually have to FLY the plane
through the 3<sup>rd</sup> roll. That has been my problem with 2 rolls is that
you can basically put the nose 5 degrees high and shove the stick over and do 2
rolls. When you add a 3<sup>rd</sup> one you actually have to learn to use the
elevator. I have heard of people having problems doing 3 rolls and it being an
“airplane killer,” but I never saw a lost airplane when I was at contests and
when I was flying the old sequences. Frankly if you are doing 3 rolls and you
can’t recover from a problem on the 3<sup>rd</sup> roll, then you need to be
flying higher. It was definitely a maneuver that was great as an essential
building block in pattern.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Arch<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bill
Glaze<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, May 10, 2009 9:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Amazes
me too, Georgie. Practicing today, just for fun, I did 4 rolls, after a
stall turn, and then entered a half square loop; had plenty room to spare,and
at less than 150 meters out.. When we were doing the 3 rolls before I
recall some people objected not about the space required, but that the 3 rolls
were "too difficult" and "too dangerous." I'd sure
like to know what happens between the second and third rolls that puts a huge
danger factor at the end of the maneuver. I've looked for the boogie man,
and just can't seem to find him.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Bill</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-----
Original Message ----- <b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:geobet4@verizon.net"
title="geobet4@verizon.net">George W.Kennie</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Saturday, May 09,
2009 9:21 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Isn't
it amazing that we have combination maneuvers like Two of Two folowed by
a Slow Roll opposite all on one line, including entry and exit lines, and
people still think that you can't get three consecutive rolls in the box.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Stymies
me !</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Who
else?</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:ghwatson@comcast.net"
title="ghwatson@comcast.net">Glen Watson</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'General pattern discussion'</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Saturday, May 09,
2009 1:02 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Chuck,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>In the early nineties when I got started in pattern the Sportsman
sequence now known as Intermediate had three rolls. I flew 2cycle then
(Saphire, LA-1) and had no problem fitting the maneuver in the box as well as
centering. I believe this built many early skill sets that have helped me
in the long run over the years.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>I’m of the opinion pattern sequences should present challenges to
ones current skill set. Without a challenge why do pattern at all.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Glen<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Chuck Hochhalter<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, May 09, 2009 11:15 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Anyone
notice how much airpace 3 rolls takes in FAI... I don’t think they lower class
has the box management skills to fit 3 rolls into the box, let alone be ready
to center them.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Chuck</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:ronlock@comcast.net" title="ronlock@comcast.net">ronlock@comcast.net</a>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Friday, May 08,
2009 9:25 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Re comments below-<br>
I believe part of reason the current Intermediate sequence has two rolls, and
not three, is-<br>
Figuring two rolls are challenge and training enough for most intermediate
pilots -<br>
And two is enough for judging- Particularly, if you see two going badly,
not many of us<br>
want to see a third.<br>
<br>
Also below - having to move out of Sportsman after first year because of
beating 4 other pilots -<br>
That is already fixed. The 2009 rule "..flier must move out of
Sportsman class at the end of he calendar year of his/her second or subsequent
year of participation if he/she places first or second and above at least 4
other fliers..."<br>
<br>
Ron Lockhart<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Ron Hansen" <rcpilot@wowway.com><br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 10:03:36 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I’ve been flying intermediate for about 3 years going on 4.
The two rolls are still kicking my you know what. I can do one slow
roll and one 4 pt roll but not two consecutive rolls. I’m certain that
the average advance pilot would really have trouble with 3 rolls. I see a
lot of intermediate, advanced and sometimes even masters pilots almost loose
airplanes on the horizontal rolling maneuvers. They shouldn’t be
underestimated.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I agree with Mark, lets make advancement at all levels a
guideline. I had to move up from sportsman to intermediate after my first
year in sportsman because I beat 4 other pilots. I was flying a Kaos and
the other pilots were all flying their 1<sup>st</sup> contests with
trainers. They had no chance. In the end I’m glade I moved up but
at the time it made me real nervous. I was so determined to fly pattern
that I decided to give it the old college try in intermediate.</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>I think Advance could use a few more maneuvers that exit inverted.
Otherwise, I believe all the sequences are pretty good.</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:navy'>Ron </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard
Lewis<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 08, 2009 4:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'>There is
a provision in the current rule set to accomodate these situations, see 8.1.2
of the competition regulations....<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'>Richard<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='margin-left:.5in'>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>
<hr size=1 width="100%" align=center>
</span></div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> "jeffghughes@comcast.net" <jeffghughes@comcast.net><br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 8, 2009 3:30:24 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Bob,</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>I understand completely, I moved up to advanced, then my daughter
got sick and I've been to one contest in 4 years. My flying has regressed, and
my confidence along with it. </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>Jeff</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;
margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Mark Atwood" <atwoodm@paragon-inc.com><br>
To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2009 2:52:19 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern<br>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I know you’re joking some
Bob, but I think you’re actually a great example of someone that was able to
fly a lot, and progressed nicely through the system, but then when you got to
Masters…a time when you really need to practice even more to be competitive,
your job suddenly changed, home life became more complex, and you’re
lucky to fly 10 practice flights a year outside of contests. Your
experience and skill would allow you to be competitive in Advanced, without
dominating and likely have a lot more fun being a spoiler to that crowd, rather
than trying to fly masters without hardly even knowing the pattern.</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You’re the perfect candidate
for someone that should be able to choose where they fly (which pattern) and
have the most enjoyment. </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bob Kane<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 08, 2009 2:40 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'>Hey, I
resemble that remark . . . . . . .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'>Bob Kane<br>
getterflash@yahoo.com<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> "jeffghughes@comcast.net" <jeffghughes@comcast.net><br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Don Ramsey <don.ramsey@suddenlink.net><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 8, 2009 12:17:58 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Advancement System</span><span
style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:black'>This is all pretty interesting. From my perspective, I didn't
really care who beat me when I was in intermediate or advanced. I just
knew that I was seeing the skill level necessary to win. While it's nice to win
a trophy in the lower classes, I understood I wasn't competing against the best
pilots anyway. From what I've seen there is a huge variation of
talent within a class anyway. I've seen Masters pilots fly that
wouldn't win in advanced if they bumped back down (maybe not even in
intermediate). People move up for all kinds of reasons unrelated to skill
level. It's also interesting that we talk about using each class to
improve our flying until we get to Masters, then it appears nobody wants to
improve to FAI. </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p style='margin-left:.5in'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
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Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com/" target="_blank">www.avg.com</a><br>
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