[NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs
J Shu
jshulman at cfl.rr.com
Tue Mar 3 17:37:24 AKST 2009
We have 8 minutes. As of now we finish our flights after the 7 min mark. To get scored on t/o and landing, we would need to try... and also take the time on landing.
Regards,
Jason
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Stuart Chale
To: General pattern discussion
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs
You (FAI) still have to take off and land. How much longer would it take to make a pretty take off and landing instead of what you do now. I suspect the landing would be the same as you still have to slow down to landing speed :) The takeoff may take what 3 or 4 seconds more to fly smoothly to 2 meters before turning somewhere? Keep the time limit as it is on the flying portion and just score the takeoff and landings 1 to 10.
Done :)
J Shu wrote:
Because it takes time to make a perfect take-off and landing, and currently the time stops after the half roll after the 45-downs. We wouldn't have enough time unless the time limit was raised.
Regards,
Jason
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Budd Engineering
To: General pattern discussion
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs
Why would FAI have less time for scored TO's/L's than any other class? With the exception of Sportsman (and possibly Intermediate), FAI flys the shortest sequence. Masters in particular takes way longer.
Jerry
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 3, 2009, at 8:25 AM, "J Shu" <jshulman at cfl.rr.com> wrote:
I'm certainly not THE expert... I'm just going by my observations of pattern now to pattern when I was a kid. Like Stuart said, nothing beat a nose high take-off or landing down the centerline... and not many could do it. At least back then the only planes I remember running from weren't pattern planes, but scale planes!
I used to always lose bets with my brother for the best take-off and landings cause his Ugly Stick was the perfect plane for that. He would line it up on the center line and roll down the runway, lift the nose just before the judges and break ground just after... 10. And then do the same thing for landing and get 10's there too. But his loops always ended up in the next county so I won the flying bets.
FAI doesn't need to have scored take-offs and landings... we don't have time for it. But I don't see why AMA shouldn't be scored (and taught) on take-offs and landings. If you're a good pilot, then these should be freebie points for the taking.
Regards,
Jason
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com
----- Original Message -----
From: George W.Kennie
To: General pattern discussion
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs
There you have it from THE expert !!!!!!!!!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: J Shu
To: General pattern discussion
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs
I'd much rather see take-offs and landings be judged. What's the incentive of having a pilot learn how to learn a proper (and safe) take-off and landing if there is no 10 to shoot for? And not a 0 or 10, but scored. Just because it wouldn't be scored doesn't make a pilot try and make a safe take-off or landing.
Regards,
Jason
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Taylor
To: General pattern discussion
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs
I agree, TO's and Landings shouldn't be judged. Add one turn around and center maneuver to the classes that score them. Exit the box down wind then they can make a 180 to landing.
Tim
--- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <geobet4 at verizon.net> wrote:
From: George W.Kennie <geobet4 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Monday, March 2, 2009, 4:44 PM
I think that dropping the scoring of TOs and LGs with the intent of reducing risk will be only minimally effective. There are always going to be individuals who will experience difficulty with crossing winds, turbulance, ineptitude, whatever, no matter how many times they go around. I can think of individuals who would include me in the group.
G.
----- Original Message -----
From: J N Hiller
To: bob at toprudder.com ; General pattern discussion
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs
You make a good argument for dropping takeoff and landing scoring. I have aborted landings more than once.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Bob Richards
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:28 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Landings and Takeoffs
I'll say it here, JMHO. I personally don't think takeoffs and landings should be judged. These are the maneuvers that put the plane closest to the pilots/judges/spectators. I've seen some bad takeoffs and landing approaches pushed to dangerous situations when they would probably have been aborted had they not been scored maneuvers. At the very least, the airplane is at risk. At the most, people are at risk. I've had one plane fly behind my head at the Nats (between myself, my caller, and the judges) during a landing when the plane got away from the pilot during one such occurance. I've also seen a plane slam into a person in the pits at full throttle, just after lifting off the ground, when the plane first veered away from the pits and the pilot forced the takeoff by kicking rudder to get it back on the runway. At no point did he back off the throttle. In most situations such as this, anyone would have aborted and started over, but because they are being judged they keep on pushing a bad situation.
And, no, niether situation involved someone in the Sportsman or Intermediate classes. These were both contestants that had flown pattern for several years.
I thank god they don't judge takeoffs and landings in IMAC.
JM2CW
Bob R.
--- On Mon, 3/2/09, George W.Kennie <geobet4 at verizon.net> wrote:
I don't feel the same way as John on the landing maneuver being relegated to a non-skill element.
All aerobatic maneuvers that we perform competitively require that we demonstrate to a judge that we have developed some precise degree of control over the airframe under our command. To achieve this control further requires intense concentration on the part of the pilot. I would offer that there are many airborne maneuvers where the degree of concentration required by the pilot are significantly lower than that required to bring the airframe back into contact with terra firma and demonstrate complete and confident control. This is a skill that is worthy of reward in my viewpoint.
G.
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