[NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions

Tue Mar 3 10:17:35 AKST 2009

George I'm late this morning because I had to dig out my collection of old
rulebooks to check on the tail wheel first issue you refer to.
Yes I suspect there were downgrades and accompanying discussion regarding
rules compliance about the time we started flying conventional gear
aircraft.
Here is what I found:

Prior to the 1990-91 rulebook – [1988 – 1989 - P-62 – Landing – 2nd & 3rd
sentences]
"The model flares smoothly to a nose- high attitude, dissipating all flying
speed, then smoothly touching the ground, within the landing circle, with
the main wheels first, with no bouncing or changes in heading after touch
down." "The nose wheel on a tricycle gear should settle gently to the ground
after a brief roll out."

I suspect in an era of long tail turnaround airplanes with short main gear
(by today's standards) tail first landings occurred often if slowed to a
nose high attitude, violating the "main wheels first" requirement intended
to prevent flying-on a tri-gear aircraft. Rules have always been subject to
interpretation as to literal meaning or intent. I actually remember some of
the tail first discussions but never got involved. At this point I should
add that the NSRCA judge certification program developed since and presented
by volunteers has done a superb job in clarify many interpretation
questions.

Here is what the 1990-91 rulebook has – [P-66 – Landing – 3rd sentence]
"The nose wheel on a tricycle gear and the tail wheel on a conventional gear
(unless a '"3 point landing" of main and tail wheel touching simultaneously
is executed) should settle gently to the ground after a brief roll out."

This sentence remained through the 2002 - 2004 AMA rulebook (last one I
have) and can probably be interpreted as disallowing a tail wheel first
landing although it was NOT listed as a downgrade. At this point I should
add that it is impractical if not impossible to list every conceivable rule
violation as a specific downgrade, although this one probably should have
been since it identifies and describes the 3 – point landing allowance for
conventional gear aircraft. I should also mention that nearly every rulebook
has a change to the landing description. This has been a nearly continuously
debated issue for at least 20 years. This is all history now but an
interesting look at where we came from.

As always if a pilot or judge has a questions regarding rule clarification
they should bring them up during the pilots or judges meeting prior to the
start of competition.

Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George
W.Kennie
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 5:52 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions

I'm with you on the nose high / flying speed relationship.  Somewhere in my
memory bank there's something regarding a downgrade if the tailwheel touches
down first, but I can no longer tell you if it's AMA or FAI related.  My
problem is that my memory bank does not contain file folders.
G.

----- Original Message -----
From: J N Hiller <mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net>
To: General pattern discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions

No frustration here. Flying season here is still about a month away.
I went to the shop a while to adjust the struts (wing twist) on a new 1/4
scale PA-20 (Pacer) and it occurred to me that excess landing speed would
likely violate the nose high requirement (again subjective) prior to any
roll out consideration and should have already received a downgrade.
I will probably get in trouble for this but here goes. Nose high / angle of
attack v/s flying speed as you know is relative to how much elevator is
being held and throttle setting. Only the pilot really knows if he could
have or should have landed slower, however there is no doubt if the tail
wheel rolls on first.
I have landed with excessive speed many times before someone here suggested
using one of the sliders to set flying idle reserving the stick trim for
absolute low idle. If you roll it on gently and don't hit a bump it don't
bounce and slows nicely on grass, however asphalt is a different story.
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George
W.Kennie
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:50 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions

Jim,

I think I'm finally catching up to your thought process. Boy, you must be
frustrated !

----- Original Message -----
From: J N Hiller <mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net>

To: General pattern discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:28 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions

That's the issue I was trying to open. "Flying Speed" = What? Judge
perception I guess! Call it like you see it until it's more defined or
dropped. One could always ask for a clarification during the pilot's and or
judge's meeting.
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George
W.Kennie
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:14 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions

Jim,

I finally see the light. I've been too focused on the line in the PPP which
is incomplete.  Thinking that the word "stop" was the crucial point it now
becomes clear that the emphasis is really meant to be focused on the word
"or", and understanding that makes it clear that,like Chris says, after the
10 meter roll it's fini !

But my head is still fighting me. What if the aircraft at no time slows
below flying speed, comes in and makes a LZ touchdown and proceeds to roll
for 100 feet without becoming airborne or flipping over? Clarification?

Jim? Chris? anybody?

G.

----- Original Message -----
From: J N Hiller <mailto:jnhiller at earthlink.net>

To: General pattern discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions

Hi George and Bill. (More have posted since I started this but here it is
anyway)
Here is the first paragraph from AMA RCA-25. Probably not changed since I
saved it on 2-3-09.

Landing: The landing maneuver will be scored in half point increments from
10 to 0. The maneuver will start two (2) meters from the ground. The model
flares smoothly to a nose high altitude, dissipating flying speed, and then
smoothly touches the ground, within the landing zone. The maneuver should be
considered complete once the plane has slowed below flying speed and rolled
10 meters or comes to a stop and no further downgrades shall be applied
after that point.

Looks like there is some discrepancy here. We will probably here more on
this.

"slowed below flying speed AND rolled 10 meters" could be interpreted as a
requirement that the speed be below flying speed (subjective) within 10
meters. Thirty years ago flying speed probably meant something but most
modern pattern airplanes are capable of flying speed without ground speed if
the nose is high enough, unless there is a documented distinction between
flying and hovering. Is landing with power greater than idle allowed? How
much power can be used to 'drag it in nose high? Most can roll the tail
wheel on before the mains, which commits the airplane to "Below Flying
Speed", at least without a bump / bounce.

"10 meters OR comes to a stop" would indicate that the landing is complete
after the 10-meter roll out without having to come to a stop. If a stop were
required I would expect "AND" to be used.

I have no opinion on this. I just try to get a decent landing near the
center and accept whatever score is given. You should see some of the
landings at a soaring contest where the pilot if focused on maximum landing
score.
Got to go, be back later.
Jim

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of George
W.Kennie
Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 8:15 AM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions

Bill,

This is probably inaccurate, but I notice that noone else has responded to
your inquiry so just to prove that I have not learned my lesson, here goes.

In the landing descriptor it states, " there is no down grade if the model
rolls to a stop within 15 meters".   I think the crucial word is STOP !
What does this mean to proper execution?   How many times have you seen a
plane touch down perfectly within one meter of the center line and then
proceed to roll perfectly straight down the center of the runway without a
single bounce for a distance of 150 feet?  A little hot maybe, but to most
observers, a beautiful landing. In light of the "Stop within 15 meters"
stipulation, it would appear that this becomes a downgradeable offence.
Sounds, to me, like maybe it's the pilot's responsibility to also control
the approach airspeed so that touchdown occurs just above stall speed
controlling the rollout distance, but maybe somebody will correct me on
this. I think this would also cover stuff like flipovers after the 15 meter
rollout.

If the pilot performs a landing and meets all the above requirements and
then encounters an obstacle, whether that be a hole or a hummock or
whatever, I would deem the execution faultless and rule "beyond the pilot's
control" and score a 10.  Flipovers usually occur as a result of either the
plane being outside the landing zone or equipment malfunction ( stuck wheel
e.t.c.) and would require discretionary judgement on the part of the scorer.

And yup, I agree, It's got to be a physical impossibility to enter and exit
a Split Esse at the same altitude. I think that needs correcting.

Of course, all this is my opinionated interpretation of matters and should
be so received.

G.

----- Original Message -----
From: billglaze <mailto:billglaze at bellsouth.net>

To: nsrca- discussion <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 4:30 PM
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Questions

At the risk of starting another downwind turn discussion:

I've been reading over the excellent PowerPoint presentation, and I'd like a
question answered that I've had for a long time.
On landing, if the plane overturns AT ANY TIME is it an automatic zero?
I've felt for a long time that it should be, yet I've had people tell me
"after 50 ft. landing roll, we've completely lost interest in the airplane."
It can roll anywhere, do anything, and it doesn't affect the score, is their
idea.
Also, if it TOUCHES DOWN in the landing zone, and then rolls immediately
into what awaits, (in some cases, a small canyon) is the landing zeroed?
I've been called for doing so once.
Secondly, in reading the presentation for Intermediate, it states for the
Split S:  A downgrade if the entry and exit are not at the same altitude.
Seems to me to be an error that slipped by, but I've been wrong before.
(Honest; yes, it's happened!)<G>  I've been known to incorrectly
read/interpret also.  Standing by for the more knowledgeable brains on the
list!
thanks
Bill Glaze
NSRCA 2388

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