[NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern

Fri Jan 30 14:27:16 AKST 2009

Most CD's already allow ANY AMA legal plane for Sportsman.  I would like
to see that capped at 50cc and extended to Intermediate.  Field sound
rules should not be violated at anytime.  It's up to the CD to make sure
contestants are within the rules of the field.

- Robert Beaubien

- Sr. Software Architect

- Kool Software LLC

-

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Matthew
Frederick
Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 4:01 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern

It would make for some very unhappy Masters and FAI pilots. Plus you
couldn't hear if you had a flameout with a pattern plane with a 50CC
gasser running at the same time!

	----- Original Message ----- 

	From: Robert L. Beaubien <mailto:rob at koolsoft.com>  

	To: General pattern discussion
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

	Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 8:32 PM

	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow
Pattern

	I'd be in favor of removing the restrictions for Intermediate
class as well.  IMAC guys look at the Sportsman routine and think it is
easy.  We all know that it's a lot harder than they think to do
"Straight flight out", but perception is hard to get by.   Mebby set a
limit of 50cc for Sportsman and Intermediate.  It could make for some
fun contests.

	Another thing that would garner interest (I think) would be to
change all the schedules every year.  Sportsman could alternate between
2 or 3 different routines as could Intermediate.  No need to create
completely new routines every year for these 2 classes.  That is
something I would like to see just to change it up for us.  I figure on
flying Intermediate for 2 years unless I suddenly get a lot of free time
to practice this year.  :-)

	- Robert Beaubien

	- NSRCA, District 7 Webmaster

	-

	From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Cohen
	Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:18 PM
	To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow
Pattern

	Well, why don't we encourage the guy with the $500 IMAC ARF to
use it in pattern?  If they like their first contest, they will find a
more pattern like airplane before moving up to intermediate!

	> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 18:46:46 +0000
	> From: seefo at san.rr.com
	> To: jpavlick at idseng.com; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org;
homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com
	> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow
Pattern
	> 
	> 
	> Pattern really needs a new competitive ARF to enter market at
a reasonable price point. Something like $500. In fact.. it needs
several of them so people can have choices in what to fly.
	> 
	> With IMAC, you can get an airplane of the same size (2m), RTF
including engine and radio for what the majority of the ARFs cost for a
pattern airplane airframe only.
	> 
	> Getting the costs under control should be #1 priority. 
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> ---- krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com>
wrote: 
	> > Well said John.. 
	> > 
	> > On another note, didn't this start out as a "please take an
online vote" email.
	> > 
	> > On even another note, Imac is a different bird. More people
may be interested in flying IMAC IMO because there is the freestyle.
Foamies have made a great impact so that anyone can huck in their front
yards. Kids are really into the foamies and the freestyles because they
are fun, and impressive. We lack this fun type of flying in their minds.
(Not to me, 3d is somewhat boring to me, except for foamies)
	> > As someone stated earlier, pattern doesn't have the market
flooded with $400-500 arfs that almost every person at my field and
other fields locally have. If we did, I know of many people at my field
that would buy one. They have told me so. Every time I bring a new plane
to the field, people ask me how much, and where can they get one. When I
tell em how much, their face drops...Wanna grow pattern, do something
like Hester. He's on the right track IMO. Look at all the ads in the
larger magazines, how many pattern planes do you see in those ads? 
	> > 
	> > Chris      
	> > 
	> > --- On Thu, 1/29/09, John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com>
wrote:
	> > From: John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com>
	> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow
Pattern
	> > To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
	> > Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 7:01 AM
	> > 
	> > Jim,
	> >  Interesting observations. In my neck of the woods
(Connecticut) there is almost NO IMAC or Pattern competition so I don't
see any of this. Part of the reason for that is that it's hard to find
large, open areas where you're allowed to fly model airplanes. Let alone
have an organized contest. My state pretty much sucks in that regard.
There sems to be plenty of room for shopping centers and "retirement
communities" however.
	> >  
	> > Even with these restrictions, I've managed to enlighten a
few people and make them aware of Precision Aerobatics. By this I mean
IMAC AND Pattern. Some people just don't want to fly Pattern, whereas
others simply don't want to fly IMAC. That's fine as far as I'm
concerned but the point is they need to know about them. That's where I
think Patttern and the NSRCA suffers the most. People simply don't know
that we exist. We need to increase our visibility if we want to attract
new members. We DON'T need to change anything with how we fly, how we
judge, etc. At least not to attract new people. All we need to do is let
them know we're here and that they can fly with us if they want to. No
pressure to join. Just take your basic sport model to a contest and fly
a few rounds in Sportsman. Don't buy a new radio or airplane. Don't
worry about the weight or size. Just show up. If we want to grow
Patttern, that's one of the things that we
	> > need to do. If printed copies of the K-Factor at local hobby
shops will help with that cause (it just might), then send me a box so I
can drop them off. :)
	> >  
	> > John Pavlick
	> >  
	> > BTW - I actually did learn about the NSRCA through the
K-Factor after a club member handed me a copy that he picked up
somewhere. Once I knew that Patttern was still alive in my area (I had
taken a LONG hiatus) I built a new airplane, started going to contests
and joined the NSRCA.
	> >  
	> > 
	> > --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Woodward, Jim (US SSA)
<jim.woodward at baesystems.com> wrote:
	> > 
	> > From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
	> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper
K-Factor Poll
	> > To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
	> > Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 2:16 PM
	> > 
	> > 
	> > 
	> > 
	> > 
	> > 
	> > 
	> > 
	> > JN - there is more to the comparison of IMAC/Pattern than
the traceable history to the TOC or available ARF scenario.  I think Jay
hit on it something important other day stating something to the effect
that, "... if you are not in FAI or Masters you are left on your own."
(forgive me if it wasn't Jay or I misquoted).  Pattern and IMAC are
totally different in many ways and being that I'm involved in the
District/Leadership of each, I'll list a few in no particular order:
	> > 1.       Basic, Sportsman, Intermediate in IMAC:  in a 50
person contest, there are 5 Unlimited, 5 Advanced, and 40 persons spread
almost equally between the lower classes
	> > 2.       Sportsman, Intermediate, Advanced in Pattern: In a
20 person contest, maybe 3-4 FAI, 7-10 Masters, 8-10 spread between
lower classes.
	> > 3.       R/C Clubs view holding an IMAC Contest as a
money-making event.  Not so sure for the pattern event.
	> > 4.       Not such a rush to move up in classes in IMAC:
IMAC changes sequences yearly and has unknowns flown each contest, all
classes except for Basic.  IMAC classes get harder in a hurry.  For
instance the intermediate class will have a 90 degree rolling turn in it
and numerous snaps rolls, also a spin.   There is no mercy on
unknowns... sometimes they are more difficult than the normal sequence,
sometimes easier, sometimes just different.  There is not an expectation
that all pilots will reach the "destination" class.  There is no
destination class in IMAC.  
	> > 5.       Piloting differences?  I find the average IMAC
pilot is a fairly high skilled R/C pilot that is learning the precision
side of things. You might watch a OK sequence, but later in the evening
see them throwing it down on the deck in aggressive Freestyle most of us
would dare try.  The Pattern guys grow-up precision and can fly a higher
scoring stall turn and have better sequence-fundamentals (and
positioning), but lack in some of the other R/C roundness.
	> > 6.       The IMAC ranks have a lot of guys "who used to fly
pattern" in them.  I've heard it all as to why they stopped flying
pattern and here it is (believe me or not , up to you):
	> > a.       Pattern is too political at the top
	> > b.      Feeling of Topped out - it didn't matter how much I
practiced, I couldn't improve my scores or beat that one guy
	> > c.       Best flights aren't winning rounds
	> > d.      Didn't fit in
	> > e.      These are opinions range from normal pilots, to "top
guys" that only fly IMAC now
	> > 7.       Flying/Positioning - I love the pattern way of
flying in a box, with a centerpole - I FREAKIN-HATE the IMAC way of
writing sequences with "sort of left, sort of right" maneuvers.  I
understand why it is done and such, but I'd take the box anyday.  Flying
the box in pattern is its "own-significant-difficulty" which makes the
less complex maneuvers harder to do.  The IMAC way lets them "load-up"
each maneuver into a super-complex deal - very hard to score well I may
add too.  However, its all part of the pie.
	> > 8.       Winning?  In pattern, a win means you flew the
sequences the best.  This is cool because often you can "beat" a better
pilot, by flying the maneuver you need to know how to do better than the
other guys.  In IMAC, usually the "best" pilots wins, because it is a
combination of flying the known and unknown. 
	> > 9.       Planes?  Pattern planes fly the best, but are
harder to fly well.  Pattern planes are less affected by small changes
in atmospheric conditions, or good/bad engine days - IE  -- you almost
always have enough power in a pattern plane regardless of sequence
flown.  IMAC  - totally different.  Humidity (specifically), can
DRASTICALLY affect the speed of your plane.  Power requirements change
hugely with sequence/class changes.  For instance, unlimited need a
truly unlimited power setup.  Not so easy to move up without changing
equipment.  A 40% plane is easier to fly "wings-level", but the judging
penalties
	> > are 0.5 point per 5 degrees, instead of 1 point per 15
degrees. 
	> > 10.   Organizational view on Judging - I don't know what the
NSRCA stance is on judging right now.  In IMAC, there is HUGE $$$ spent
on judging programs, seminars, and creating a national standard for
judging.  How do they do this?  They fly in people from all around the
country for a national-type of judge certification.  These guys then go
forth and carry the message.
	> > a.       Why do they do this?  Because they know that
regional differences and biases, or cheating of any kind, can kill-off
an organization.  They put a huge leadership and organizational priority
on getting judging right.  - if you know me - you know I like that. 
	> >  
	> > So, there are many, many differences between the two.
Personally, I gravitate towards flying the pattern plane.  However, the
"competitive" factors in IMAC are solid too and given the activity
around my neck of the woods, you can't pass it up.  So what's the point,
I guess the point still is that  the total formula is working for IMAC.
The NSRCA formula is not.  What can we take from the differences to
tune-up our own game?  And regarding the K-factor - in today's economy
it is hard to justify business decisions that don't break even.  
	> > Jim
	> >  
	> >  
	> > 
	> > 
	> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N
Hiller
	> > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:48 PM
	> > To: General pattern discussion
	> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper
K-Factor Poll
	> >  
	> > IMAC v/s Pattern is almost an apples to oranges comparison.
IMAC popularity can be traced to the TOC and the general appeal of large
colorful high performance readily available aircraft but mostly
visibility. Pattern flying is absent from many local clubs but large
aerobatic airplanes are represented nearly everywhere. The big airplanes
attract the press and interests spectators. Pattern by comparison is
extremely repetitious and boring to those not directly involved. 
	> > I didn't want to get into this here but I question how many
non-pattern folks would read a free K-Factor. There is a free sample
available there now. Is anybody finding it? The problem I find is
"Pattern" visibility. I couldn't get Google to find the NSRCA when
querying aerobatics, RC aerobatics or pattern, however IMAC showed up.
It's as if some amount of prior knowledge is needed before an outsider
can gain access to pattern activity. 
	> > AMA doesn't do a very good of job explaining competition
events or activity and if you don't know follow the SIG you are kind of
out of luck. How dose an outsider become aware of and interested in any
competition event without knowing where to look? 
	> > As for the K-Factor, the publication is second to none. I
have been receiving them since it was several folded 11 x 14 sheets from
a copy machine. The content has for the most part remained about the
same; mostly contest results and district news. It's more of a
competition newsletter with content of interest to those involved and of
questionable interest to outsiders or the mildly interested. There is
little seed for growing interest in any rulebook event on the Internet.
It only happens at the local level with people having fun. 
	> > To be active competitors in either IMAC or pattern requires
a fair amount of disposable income and time commitment. We draw from the
same shrinking pool of people willing to commit to a weekend out of town
to participate in what appears to be a very regimented activity flown
near the limit of visibility for many. Bigger really is better and we
(Pattern) is somewhat restricted by trying to remain compatible with
FAI.
	> > I have probably gone on too long but I don't believe our
salvation lies in a free K-Factor, not that it shouldn't be, it just
won't draw many to our sport.
	> > Sorry Derek, forgive me for splattering this even more.
	> > Jim Hiller
	> >  
	> >  
	> > -----Original Message-----
	> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Troy
Newman
	> > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:44 PM
	> > To: General pattern discussion
	> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper
K-Factor Poll
	> >  
	> >  
	> > Jim,
	> >  
	> > What is really amazing is locally here in AZ and Sothern
California IMAC contests attract 60-70 pilots.
	> >  
	> > IMAC membership is up near 1000 members. They have an online
only newsletter. Not even a magazine.
	> >  
	> > Why would it be horrible to emulate an organization that is
successful like that.
	> >  
	> > They can't be doing anything right they are just IMACers
	> > Just something to think about.
	> >  
	> > Troy_______________________________________________
	> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
	> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
	> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion________________
_______________________________
	> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
	> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
	> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> 
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