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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Most CD's already allow ANY AMA legal plane for Sportsman. I
would like to see that capped at 50cc and extended to Intermediate. Field
sound rules should not be violated at anytime. It's up to the CD to make sure
contestants are within the rules of the field.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>- Robert Beaubien<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>- Sr. Software Architect<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>- Kool Software LLC<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>-<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Matthew
Frederick<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, January 30, 2009 4:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> General pattern discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>It
would make for some very unhappy Masters and FAI pilots. Plus you couldn't hear
if you had a flameout with a pattern plane with a 50CC gasser running at the
same time!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>-----
Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:rob@koolsoft.com"
title="rob@koolsoft.com">Robert L. Beaubien</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"
title="nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Thursday, January
29, 2009 8:32 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I'd be in favor of removing the restrictions for Intermediate
class as well. IMAC guys look at the Sportsman routine and think it is
easy. We all know that it's a lot harder than they think to do
"Straight flight out", but perception is hard to get by.
Mebby set a limit of 50cc for Sportsman and Intermediate. It could make
for some fun contests.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Another thing that would garner interest (I think) would be to
change all the schedules every year. Sportsman could alternate between 2
or 3 different routines as could Intermediate. No need to create
completely new routines every year for these 2 classes. That is something
I would like to see just to change it up for us. I figure on flying Intermediate
for 2 years unless I suddenly get a lot of free time to practice this
year. :-)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>- Robert Beaubien<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>- NSRCA, District 7 Webmaster<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>-<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael
Cohen<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif"'>Well, why don't we encourage the guy with
the $500 IMAC ARF to use it in pattern? If they like their first contest,
they will find a more pattern like airplane before moving up to intermediate!<br>
<br>
> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 18:46:46 +0000<br>
> From: seefo@san.rr.com<br>
> To: jpavlick@idseng.com; nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org;
homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com<br>
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> Pattern really needs a new competitive ARF to enter market at a reasonable
price point. Something like $500. In fact.. it needs several of them so people
can have choices in what to fly.<br>
> <br>
> With IMAC, you can get an airplane of the same size (2m), RTF including
engine and radio for what the majority of the ARFs cost for a pattern airplane
airframe only.<br>
> <br>
> Getting the costs under control should be #1 priority. <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> ---- krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003@yahoo.com> wrote: <br>
> > Well said John.. <br>
> > <br>
> > On another note, didn't this start out as a "please take an
online vote" email.<br>
> > <br>
> > On even another note, Imac is a different bird. More people may be
interested in flying IMAC IMO because there is the freestyle. Foamies have made
a great impact so that anyone can huck in their front yards. Kids are really
into the foamies and the freestyles because they are fun, and impressive. We
lack this fun type of flying in their minds. (Not to me, 3d is somewhat boring
to me, except for foamies)<br>
> > As someone stated earlier, pattern doesn't have the market flooded
with $400-500 arfs that almost every person at my field and other fields
locally have. If we did, I know of many people at my field that would buy one.
They have told me so. Every time I bring a new plane to the field, people ask
me how much, and where can they get one. When I tell em how much, their face
drops...Wanna grow pattern, do something like Hester. He's on the right track
IMO. Look at all the ads in the larger magazines, how many pattern planes do
you see in those ads? <br>
> > <br>
> > Chris <br>
> > <br>
> > --- On Thu, 1/29/09, John Pavlick <jpavlick@idseng.com> wrote:<br>
> > From: John Pavlick <jpavlick@idseng.com><br>
> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern<br>
> > To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
> > Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 7:01 AM<br>
> > <br>
> > Jim,<br>
> > Interesting observations. In my neck of the woods (Connecticut)
there is almost NO IMAC or Pattern competition so I don't see any of this.
Part of the reason for that is that it's hard to find large, open areas where
you're allowed to fly model airplanes. Let alone have an organized contest. My
state pretty much sucks in that regard. There sems to be plenty of room for
shopping centers and "retirement communities" however.<br>
> > <br>
> > Even with these restrictions, I've managed to enlighten a few people
and make them aware of Precision Aerobatics. By this I mean IMAC AND
Pattern. Some people just don't want to fly Pattern, whereas others simply
don't want to fly IMAC. That's fine as far as I'm concerned but the point is
they need to know about them. That's where I think Patttern and the NSRCA
suffers the most. People simply don't know that we exist. We need to increase
our visibility if we want to attract new members. We DON'T need to change
anything with how we fly, how we judge, etc. At least not to attract new
people. All we need to do is let them know we're here and that they can fly
with us if they want to. No pressure to join. Just take your basic sport model
to a contest and fly a few rounds in Sportsman. Don't buy a new radio or
airplane. Don't worry about the weight or size. Just show up. If we want to
grow Patttern, that's one of the things that we<br>
> > need to do. If printed copies of the K-Factor at local hobby shops
will help with that cause (it just might), then send me a box so I can
drop them off. :)<br>
> > <br>
> > John Pavlick<br>
> > <br>
> > BTW - I actually did learn about the NSRCA through the K-Factor after
a club member handed me a copy that he picked up somewhere. Once I knew
that Patttern was still alive in my area (I had taken a LONG hiatus) I
built a new airplane, started going to contests and joined the NSRCA.<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Woodward, Jim (US SSA)
<jim.woodward@baesystems.com> wrote:<br>
> > <br>
> > From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward@baesystems.com><br>
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll<br>
> > To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><br>
> > Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 2:16 PM<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > JN – there is more to the comparison of IMAC/Pattern than the
traceable history to the TOC or available ARF scenario. I think Jay hit
on it something important other day stating something to the effect that, “… if
you are not in FAI or Masters you are left on your own.” (forgive me if
it wasn’t Jay or I misquoted). Pattern and IMAC are totally different in
many ways and being that I’m involved in the District/Leadership of each, I’ll
list a few in no particular order:<br>
> > 1. Basic, Sportsman, Intermediate
in IMAC: in a 50 person contest, there are 5 Unlimited, 5 Advanced, and
40 persons spread almost equally between the lower classes<br>
> > 2. Sportsman, Intermediate,
Advanced in Pattern: In a 20 person contest, maybe 3-4 FAI, 7-10 Masters, 8-10
spread between lower classes.<br>
> > 3. R/C Clubs view holding an IMAC
Contest as a money-making event. Not so sure for the pattern event.<br>
> > 4. Not such a rush to move up in
classes in IMAC: IMAC changes sequences yearly and has unknowns flown
each contest, all classes except for Basic. IMAC classes get harder in a
hurry. For instance the intermediate class will have a 90 degree rolling
turn in it and numerous snaps rolls, also a spin. There is no mercy
on unknowns… sometimes they are more difficult than the normal sequence,
sometimes easier, sometimes just different. There is not an expectation
that all pilots will reach the “destination” class. There is no
destination class in IMAC. <br>
> > 5. Piloting differences? I
find the average IMAC pilot is a fairly high skilled R/C pilot that is learning
the precision side of things. You might watch a OK sequence, but later in the
evening see them throwing it down on the deck in aggressive Freestyle most of
us would dare try. The Pattern guys grow-up precision and can fly a
higher scoring stall turn and have better sequence-fundamentals (and positioning),
but lack in some of the other R/C roundness.<br>
> > 6. The IMAC ranks have a lot of
guys “who used to fly pattern” in them. I’ve heard it all as to why they
stopped flying pattern and here it is (believe me or not , up to you):<br>
> > a. Pattern is too political at
the top<br>
> > b. Feeling of Topped out – it didn’t
matter how much I practiced, I couldn’t improve my scores or beat that one guy<br>
> > c. Best flights aren’t winning
rounds<br>
> > d. Didn’t fit in<br>
> > e. These are opinions range from normal
pilots, to “top guys” that only fly IMAC now<br>
> > 7. Flying/Positioning – I love
the pattern way of flying in a box, with a centerpole – I FREAKIN-HATE the IMAC
way of writing sequences with “sort of left, sort of right” maneuvers. I
understand why it is done and such, but I’d take the box anyday. Flying
the box in pattern is its “own-significant-difficulty” which makes the less
complex maneuvers harder to do. The IMAC way lets them “load-up” each
maneuver into a super-complex deal – very hard to score well I may add
too. However, its all part of the pie.<br>
> > 8. Winning? In pattern, a
win means you flew the sequences the best. This is cool because often you
can “beat” a better pilot, by flying the maneuver you need to know how to do
better than the other guys. In IMAC, usually the “best” pilots wins,
because it is a combination of flying the known and unknown. <br>
> > 9. Planes? Pattern planes
fly the best, but are harder to fly well. Pattern planes are less affected
by small changes in atmospheric conditions, or good/bad engine days – IE
-- you almost always have enough power in a pattern plane regardless of
sequence flown. IMAC - totally different. Humidity
(specifically), can DRASTICALLY affect the speed of your plane. Power
requirements change hugely with sequence/class changes. For instance,
unlimited need a truly unlimited power setup. Not so easy to move up
without changing equipment. A 40% plane is easier to fly “wings-level”,
but the judging penalties<br>
> > are 0.5 point per 5 degrees, instead of 1 point per 15 degrees. <br>
> > 10. Organizational view on Judging – I don’t know what
the NSRCA stance is on judging right now. In IMAC, there is HUGE $$$
spent on judging programs, seminars, and creating a national standard for
judging. How do they do this? They fly in people from all around
the country for a national-type of judge certification. These guys then
go forth and carry the message.<br>
> > a. Why do they do this?
Because they know that regional differences and biases, or cheating of any
kind, can kill-off an organization. They put a huge leadership and
organizational priority on getting judging right. – if you know me – you
know I like that. <br>
> > <br>
> > So, there are many, many differences between the two.
Personally, I gravitate towards flying the pattern plane. However, the
“competitive” factors in IMAC are solid too and given the activity around my
neck of the woods, you can’t pass it up. So what’s the point, I guess the
point still is that the total formula is working for IMAC. The
NSRCA formula is not. What can we take from the differences to tune-up
our own game? And regarding the K-factor – in today’s economy it is hard
to justify business decisions that don’t break even. <br>
> > Jim<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N Hiller<br>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:48 PM<br>
> > To: General pattern discussion<br>
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll<br>
> > <br>
> > IMAC v/s Pattern is almost an apples to oranges comparison. IMAC
popularity can be traced to the TOC and the general appeal of large colorful
high performance readily available aircraft but mostly visibility. Pattern
flying is absent from many local clubs but large aerobatic airplanes are
represented nearly everywhere. The big airplanes attract the press and
interests spectators. Pattern by comparison is extremely repetitious and boring
to those not directly involved. <br>
> > I didn't want to get into this here but I question how many
non-pattern folks would read a free K-Factor. There is a free sample available
there now. Is anybody finding it? The problem I find is "Pattern"
visibility. I couldn't get Google to find the NSRCA when querying aerobatics,
RC aerobatics or pattern, however IMAC showed up. It's as if some amount of
prior knowledge is needed before an outsider can gain access to pattern
activity. <br>
> > AMA doesn't do a very good of job explaining competition events or
activity and if you don't know follow the SIG you are kind of out of luck. How
dose an outsider become aware of and interested in any competition event
without knowing where to look? <br>
> > As for the K-Factor, the publication is second to none. I have been
receiving them since it was several folded 11 x 14 sheets from a copy machine.
The content has for the most part remained about the same; mostly contest
results and district news. It's more of a competition newsletter with content
of interest to those involved and of questionable interest to outsiders or the
mildly interested. There is little seed for growing interest in any rulebook
event on the Internet. It only happens at the local level with people having
fun. <br>
> > To be active competitors in either IMAC or pattern requires a fair
amount of disposable income and time commitment. We draw from the same
shrinking pool of people willing to commit to a weekend out of town to
participate in what appears to be a very regimented activity flown near the
limit of visibility for many. Bigger really is better and we (Pattern) is
somewhat restricted by trying to remain compatible with FAI.<br>
> > I have probably gone on too long but I don't believe our salvation
lies in a free K-Factor, not that it shouldn't be, it just won't draw many to
our sport.<br>
> > Sorry Derek, forgive me for splattering this even more.<br>
> > Jim Hiller<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > -----Original Message-----<br>
> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Troy Newman<br>
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:44 PM<br>
> > To: General pattern discussion<br>
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll<br>
> > <br>
> > <br>
> > Jim,<br>
> > <br>
> > What is really amazing is locally here in AZ and Sothern California
IMAC contests attract 60-70 pilots.<br>
> > <br>
> > IMAC membership is up near 1000 members. They have an online only
newsletter. Not even a magazine.<br>
> > <br>
> > Why would it be horrible to emulate an organization that is
successful like that.<br>
> > <br>
> > They can’t be doing anything right they are just IMACers<br>
> > Just something to think about.<br>
> > <br>
> > Troy_______________________________________________<br>
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> > NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion_______________________________________________<br>
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list<br>
> > NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<br>
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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