[NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
J N Hiller
jnhiller at earthlink.net
Thu Jan 29 17:45:56 AKST 2009
50cc! Great! Can I go back to Intermediate?
Jim Hiller
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Robert L.
Beaubien
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:32 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
I'd be in favor of removing the restrictions for Intermediate class as well.
IMAC guys look at the Sportsman routine and think it is easy. We all know
that it's a lot harder than they think to do "Straight flight out", but
perception is hard to get by. Mebby set a limit of 50cc for Sportsman and
Intermediate. It could make for some fun contests.
Another thing that would garner interest (I think) would be to change all
the schedules every year. Sportsman could alternate between 2 or 3
different routines as could Intermediate. No need to create completely new
routines every year for these 2 classes. That is something I would like to
see just to change it up for us. I figure on flying Intermediate for 2
years unless I suddenly get a lot of free time to practice this year. :-)
- Robert Beaubien
- NSRCA, District 7 Webmaster
-
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Michael Cohen
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:18 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
Well, why don't we encourage the guy with the $500 IMAC ARF to use it in
pattern? If they like their first contest, they will find a more pattern
like airplane before moving up to intermediate!
> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 18:46:46 +0000
> From: seefo at san.rr.com
> To: jpavlick at idseng.com; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org;
homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
>
>
> Pattern really needs a new competitive ARF to enter market at a reasonable
price point. Something like $500. In fact.. it needs several of them so
people can have choices in what to fly.
>
> With IMAC, you can get an airplane of the same size (2m), RTF including
engine and radio for what the majority of the ARFs cost for a pattern
airplane airframe only.
>
> Getting the costs under control should be #1 priority.
>
>
>
> ---- krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Well said John..
> >
> > On another note, didn't this start out as a "please take an online vote"
email.
> >
> > On even another note, Imac is a different bird. More people may be
interested in flying IMAC IMO because there is the freestyle. Foamies have
made a great impact so that anyone can huck in their front yards. Kids are
really into the foamies and the freestyles because they are fun, and
impressive. We lack this fun type of flying in their minds. (Not to me, 3d
is somewhat boring to me, except for foamies)
> > As someone stated earlier, pattern doesn't have the market flooded with
$400-500 arfs that almost every person at my field and other fields locally
have. If we did, I know of many people at my field that would buy one. They
have told me so. Every time I bring a new plane to the field, people ask me
how much, and where can they get one. When I tell em how much, their face
drops...Wanna grow pattern, do something like Hester. He's on the right
track IMO. Look at all the ads in the larger magazines, how many pattern
planes do you see in those ads?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > --- On Thu, 1/29/09, John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com> wrote:
> > From: John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com>
> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
> > To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 7:01 AM
> >
> > Jim,
> > Interesting observations. In my neck of the woods (Connecticut) there
is almost NO IMAC or Pattern competition so I don't see any of this. Part of
the reason for that is that it's hard to find large, open areas where you're
allowed to fly model airplanes. Let alone have an organized contest. My
state pretty much sucks in that regard. There sems to be plenty of room for
shopping centers and "retirement communities" however.
> >
> > Even with these restrictions, I've managed to enlighten a few people and
make them aware of Precision Aerobatics. By this I mean IMAC AND Pattern.
Some people just don't want to fly Pattern, whereas others simply don't want
to fly IMAC. That's fine as far as I'm concerned but the point is they need
to know about them. That's where I think Patttern and the NSRCA suffers the
most. People simply don't know that we exist. We need to increase our
visibility if we want to attract new members. We DON'T need to change
anything with how we fly, how we judge, etc. At least not to attract new
people. All we need to do is let them know we're here and that they can fly
with us if they want to. No pressure to join. Just take your basic sport
model to a contest and fly a few rounds in Sportsman. Don't buy a new radio
or airplane. Don't worry about the weight or size. Just show up. If we want
to grow Patttern, that's one of the things that we
> > need to do. If printed copies of the K-Factor at local hobby shops will
help with that cause (it just might), then send me a box so I can drop them
off. :)
> >
> > John Pavlick
> >
> > BTW - I actually did learn about the NSRCA through the K-Factor after a
club member handed me a copy that he picked up somewhere. Once I knew that
Patttern was still alive in my area (I had taken a LONG hiatus) I built a
new airplane, started going to contests and joined the NSRCA.
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Woodward, Jim (US SSA)
<jim.woodward at baesystems.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
> > To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 2:16 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > JN - there is more to the comparison of IMAC/Pattern than the traceable
history to the TOC or available ARF scenario. I think Jay hit on it
something important other day stating something to the effect that, ". if
you are not in FAI or Masters you are left on your own." (forgive me if it
wasn't Jay or I misquoted). Pattern and IMAC are totally different in many
ways and being that I'm involved in the District/Leadership of each, I'll
list a few in no particular order:
> > 1. Basic, Sportsman, Intermediate in IMAC: in a 50 person
contest, there are 5 Unlimited, 5 Advanced, and 40 persons spread almost
equally between the lower classes
> > 2. Sportsman, Intermediate, Advanced in Pattern: In a 20 person
contest, maybe 3-4 FAI, 7-10 Masters, 8-10 spread between lower classes.
> > 3. R/C Clubs view holding an IMAC Contest as a money-making event.
Not so sure for the pattern event.
> > 4. Not such a rush to move up in classes in IMAC: IMAC changes
sequences yearly and has unknowns flown each contest, all classes except for
Basic. IMAC classes get harder in a hurry. For instance the intermediate
class will have a 90 degree rolling turn in it and numerous snaps rolls,
also a spin. There is no mercy on unknowns. sometimes they are more
difficult than the normal sequence, sometimes easier, sometimes just
different. There is not an expectation that all pilots will reach the
"destination" class. There is no destination class in IMAC.
> > 5. Piloting differences? I find the average IMAC pilot is a
fairly high skilled R/C pilot that is learning the precision side of things.
You might watch a OK sequence, but later in the evening see them throwing it
down on the deck in aggressive Freestyle most of us would dare try. The
Pattern guys grow-up precision and can fly a higher scoring stall turn and
have better sequence-fundamentals (and positioning), but lack in some of the
other R/C roundness.
> > 6. The IMAC ranks have a lot of guys "who used to fly pattern" in
them. I've heard it all as to why they stopped flying pattern and here it
is (believe me or not , up to you):
> > a. Pattern is too political at the top
> > b. Feeling of Topped out - it didn't matter how much I practiced, I
couldn't improve my scores or beat that one guy
> > c. Best flights aren't winning rounds
> > d. Didn't fit in
> > e. These are opinions range from normal pilots, to "top guys" that
only fly IMAC now
> > 7. Flying/Positioning - I love the pattern way of flying in a box,
with a centerpole - I FREAKIN-HATE the IMAC way of writing sequences with
"sort of left, sort of right" maneuvers. I understand why it is done and
such, but I'd take the box anyday. Flying the box in pattern is its
"own-significant-difficulty" which makes the less complex maneuvers harder
to do. The IMAC way lets them "load-up" each maneuver into a super-complex
deal - very hard to score well I may add too. However, its all part of the
pie.
> > 8. Winning? In pattern, a win means you flew the sequences the
best. This is cool because often you can "beat" a better pilot, by flying
the maneuver you need to know how to do better than the other guys. In
IMAC, usually the "best" pilots wins, because it is a combination of flying
the known and unknown.
> > 9. Planes? Pattern planes fly the best, but are harder to fly
well. Pattern planes are less affected by small changes in atmospheric
conditions, or good/bad engine days - IE -- you almost always have enough
power in a pattern plane regardless of sequence flown. IMAC - totally
different. Humidity (specifically), can DRASTICALLY affect the speed of
your plane. Power requirements change hugely with sequence/class changes.
For instance, unlimited need a truly unlimited power setup. Not so easy to
move up without changing equipment. A 40% plane is easier to fly
"wings-level", but the judging penalties
> > are 0.5 point per 5 degrees, instead of 1 point per 15 degrees.
> > 10. Organizational view on Judging - I don't know what the NSRCA
stance is on judging right now. In IMAC, there is HUGE $$$ spent on judging
programs, seminars, and creating a national standard for judging. How do
they do this? They fly in people from all around the country for a
national-type of judge certification. These guys then go forth and carry
the message.
> > a. Why do they do this? Because they know that regional
differences and biases, or cheating of any kind, can kill-off an
organization. They put a huge leadership and organizational priority on
getting judging right. - if you know me - you know I like that.
> >
> > So, there are many, many differences between the two. Personally, I
gravitate towards flying the pattern plane. However, the "competitive"
factors in IMAC are solid too and given the activity around my neck of the
woods, you can't pass it up. So what's the point, I guess the point still
is that the total formula is working for IMAC. The NSRCA formula is not.
What can we take from the differences to tune-up our own game? And
regarding the K-factor - in today's economy it is hard to justify business
decisions that don't break even.
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N Hiller
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:48 PM
> > To: General pattern discussion
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
> >
> > IMAC v/s Pattern is almost an apples to oranges comparison. IMAC
popularity can be traced to the TOC and the general appeal of large colorful
high performance readily available aircraft but mostly visibility. Pattern
flying is absent from many local clubs but large aerobatic airplanes are
represented nearly everywhere. The big airplanes attract the press and
interests spectators. Pattern by comparison is extremely repetitious and
boring to those not directly involved.
> > I didn't want to get into this here but I question how many non-pattern
folks would read a free K-Factor. There is a free sample available there
now. Is anybody finding it? The problem I find is "Pattern" visibility. I
couldn't get Google to find the NSRCA when querying aerobatics, RC
aerobatics or pattern, however IMAC showed up. It's as if some amount of
prior knowledge is needed before an outsider can gain access to pattern
activity.
> > AMA doesn't do a very good of job explaining competition events or
activity and if you don't know follow the SIG you are kind of out of luck.
How dose an outsider become aware of and interested in any competition event
without knowing where to look?
> > As for the K-Factor, the publication is second to none. I have been
receiving them since it was several folded 11 x 14 sheets from a copy
machine. The content has for the most part remained about the same; mostly
contest results and district news. It's more of a competition newsletter
with content of interest to those involved and of questionable interest to
outsiders or the mildly interested. There is little seed for growing
interest in any rulebook event on the Internet. It only happens at the local
level with people having fun.
> > To be active competitors in either IMAC or pattern requires a fair
amount of disposable income and time commitment. We draw from the same
shrinking pool of people willing to commit to a weekend out of town to
participate in what appears to be a very regimented activity flown near the
limit of visibility for many. Bigger really is better and we (Pattern) is
somewhat restricted by trying to remain compatible with FAI.
> > I have probably gone on too long but I don't believe our salvation lies
in a free K-Factor, not that it shouldn't be, it just won't draw many to our
sport.
> > Sorry Derek, forgive me for splattering this even more.
> > Jim Hiller
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Troy Newman
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:44 PM
> > To: General pattern discussion
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor Poll
> >
> >
> > Jim,
> >
> > What is really amazing is locally here in AZ and Sothern California IMAC
contests attract 60-70 pilots.
> >
> > IMAC membership is up near 1000 members. They have an online only
newsletter. Not even a magazine.
> >
> > Why would it be horrible to emulate an organization that is successful
like that.
> >
> > They can't be doing anything right they are just IMACers
> > Just something to think about.
> >
> > Troy_______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >
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