[NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
Robert L. Beaubien
rob at koolsoft.com
Thu Jan 29 17:32:17 AKST 2009
I'd be in favor of removing the restrictions for Intermediate class as
well. IMAC guys look at the Sportsman routine and think it is easy. We
all know that it's a lot harder than they think to do "Straight flight
out", but perception is hard to get by. Mebby set a limit of 50cc for
Sportsman and Intermediate. It could make for some fun contests.
Another thing that would garner interest (I think) would be to change
all the schedules every year. Sportsman could alternate between 2 or 3
different routines as could Intermediate. No need to create completely
new routines every year for these 2 classes. That is something I would
like to see just to change it up for us. I figure on flying
Intermediate for 2 years unless I suddenly get a lot of free time to
practice this year. :-)
- Robert Beaubien
- NSRCA, District 7 Webmaster
-
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Michael
Cohen
Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 6:18 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
Well, why don't we encourage the guy with the $500 IMAC ARF to use it in
pattern? If they like their first contest, they will find a more
pattern like airplane before moving up to intermediate!
> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 18:46:46 +0000
> From: seefo at san.rr.com
> To: jpavlick at idseng.com; nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org;
homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
>
>
> Pattern really needs a new competitive ARF to enter market at a
reasonable price point. Something like $500. In fact.. it needs several
of them so people can have choices in what to fly.
>
> With IMAC, you can get an airplane of the same size (2m), RTF
including engine and radio for what the majority of the ARFs cost for a
pattern airplane airframe only.
>
> Getting the costs under control should be #1 priority.
>
>
>
> ---- krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Well said John..
> >
> > On another note, didn't this start out as a "please take an online
vote" email.
> >
> > On even another note, Imac is a different bird. More people may be
interested in flying IMAC IMO because there is the freestyle. Foamies
have made a great impact so that anyone can huck in their front yards.
Kids are really into the foamies and the freestyles because they are
fun, and impressive. We lack this fun type of flying in their minds.
(Not to me, 3d is somewhat boring to me, except for foamies)
> > As someone stated earlier, pattern doesn't have the market flooded
with $400-500 arfs that almost every person at my field and other fields
locally have. If we did, I know of many people at my field that would
buy one. They have told me so. Every time I bring a new plane to the
field, people ask me how much, and where can they get one. When I tell
em how much, their face drops...Wanna grow pattern, do something like
Hester. He's on the right track IMO. Look at all the ads in the larger
magazines, how many pattern planes do you see in those ads?
> >
> > Chris
> >
> > --- On Thu, 1/29/09, John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com> wrote:
> > From: John Pavlick <jpavlick at idseng.com>
> > Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] K-Factor morphed into Grow Pattern
> > To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 7:01 AM
> >
> > Jim,
> > Interesting observations. In my neck of the woods (Connecticut)
there is almost NO IMAC or Pattern competition so I don't see any of
this. Part of the reason for that is that it's hard to find large, open
areas where you're allowed to fly model airplanes. Let alone have an
organized contest. My state pretty much sucks in that regard. There sems
to be plenty of room for shopping centers and "retirement communities"
however.
> >
> > Even with these restrictions, I've managed to enlighten a few people
and make them aware of Precision Aerobatics. By this I mean IMAC AND
Pattern. Some people just don't want to fly Pattern, whereas others
simply don't want to fly IMAC. That's fine as far as I'm concerned but
the point is they need to know about them. That's where I think Patttern
and the NSRCA suffers the most. People simply don't know that we exist.
We need to increase our visibility if we want to attract new members. We
DON'T need to change anything with how we fly, how we judge, etc. At
least not to attract new people. All we need to do is let them know
we're here and that they can fly with us if they want to. No pressure to
join. Just take your basic sport model to a contest and fly a few rounds
in Sportsman. Don't buy a new radio or airplane. Don't worry about the
weight or size. Just show up. If we want to grow Patttern, that's one of
the things that we
> > need to do. If printed copies of the K-Factor at local hobby shops
will help with that cause (it just might), then send me a box so I can
drop them off. :)
> >
> > John Pavlick
> >
> > BTW - I actually did learn about the NSRCA through the K-Factor
after a club member handed me a copy that he picked up somewhere. Once I
knew that Patttern was still alive in my area (I had taken a LONG
hiatus) I built a new airplane, started going to contests and joined the
NSRCA.
> >
> >
> > --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Woodward, Jim (US SSA)
<jim.woodward at baesystems.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward at baesystems.com>
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor
Poll
> > To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> > Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 2:16 PM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > JN - there is more to the comparison of IMAC/Pattern than the
traceable history to the TOC or available ARF scenario. I think Jay hit
on it something important other day stating something to the effect
that, "... if you are not in FAI or Masters you are left on your own."
(forgive me if it wasn't Jay or I misquoted). Pattern and IMAC are
totally different in many ways and being that I'm involved in the
District/Leadership of each, I'll list a few in no particular order:
> > 1. Basic, Sportsman, Intermediate in IMAC: in a 50 person
contest, there are 5 Unlimited, 5 Advanced, and 40 persons spread almost
equally between the lower classes
> > 2. Sportsman, Intermediate, Advanced in Pattern: In a 20
person contest, maybe 3-4 FAI, 7-10 Masters, 8-10 spread between lower
classes.
> > 3. R/C Clubs view holding an IMAC Contest as a money-making
event. Not so sure for the pattern event.
> > 4. Not such a rush to move up in classes in IMAC: IMAC
changes sequences yearly and has unknowns flown each contest, all
classes except for Basic. IMAC classes get harder in a hurry. For
instance the intermediate class will have a 90 degree rolling turn in it
and numerous snaps rolls, also a spin. There is no mercy on
unknowns... sometimes they are more difficult than the normal sequence,
sometimes easier, sometimes just different. There is not an expectation
that all pilots will reach the "destination" class. There is no
destination class in IMAC.
> > 5. Piloting differences? I find the average IMAC pilot is a
fairly high skilled R/C pilot that is learning the precision side of
things. You might watch a OK sequence, but later in the evening see them
throwing it down on the deck in aggressive Freestyle most of us would
dare try. The Pattern guys grow-up precision and can fly a higher
scoring stall turn and have better sequence-fundamentals (and
positioning), but lack in some of the other R/C roundness.
> > 6. The IMAC ranks have a lot of guys "who used to fly pattern"
in them. I've heard it all as to why they stopped flying pattern and
here it is (believe me or not , up to you):
> > a. Pattern is too political at the top
> > b. Feeling of Topped out - it didn't matter how much I
practiced, I couldn't improve my scores or beat that one guy
> > c. Best flights aren't winning rounds
> > d. Didn't fit in
> > e. These are opinions range from normal pilots, to "top guys"
that only fly IMAC now
> > 7. Flying/Positioning - I love the pattern way of flying in a
box, with a centerpole - I FREAKIN-HATE the IMAC way of writing
sequences with "sort of left, sort of right" maneuvers. I understand
why it is done and such, but I'd take the box anyday. Flying the box in
pattern is its "own-significant-difficulty" which makes the less complex
maneuvers harder to do. The IMAC way lets them "load-up" each maneuver
into a super-complex deal - very hard to score well I may add too.
However, its all part of the pie.
> > 8. Winning? In pattern, a win means you flew the sequences
the best. This is cool because often you can "beat" a better pilot, by
flying the maneuver you need to know how to do better than the other
guys. In IMAC, usually the "best" pilots wins, because it is a
combination of flying the known and unknown.
> > 9. Planes? Pattern planes fly the best, but are harder to fly
well. Pattern planes are less affected by small changes in atmospheric
conditions, or good/bad engine days - IE -- you almost always have
enough power in a pattern plane regardless of sequence flown. IMAC -
totally different. Humidity (specifically), can DRASTICALLY affect the
speed of your plane. Power requirements change hugely with
sequence/class changes. For instance, unlimited need a truly unlimited
power setup. Not so easy to move up without changing equipment. A 40%
plane is easier to fly "wings-level", but the judging penalties
> > are 0.5 point per 5 degrees, instead of 1 point per 15 degrees.
> > 10. Organizational view on Judging - I don't know what the NSRCA
stance is on judging right now. In IMAC, there is HUGE $$$ spent on
judging programs, seminars, and creating a national standard for
judging. How do they do this? They fly in people from all around the
country for a national-type of judge certification. These guys then go
forth and carry the message.
> > a. Why do they do this? Because they know that regional
differences and biases, or cheating of any kind, can kill-off an
organization. They put a huge leadership and organizational priority on
getting judging right. - if you know me - you know I like that.
> >
> > So, there are many, many differences between the two. Personally, I
gravitate towards flying the pattern plane. However, the "competitive"
factors in IMAC are solid too and given the activity around my neck of
the woods, you can't pass it up. So what's the point, I guess the point
still is that the total formula is working for IMAC. The NSRCA formula
is not. What can we take from the differences to tune-up our own game?
And regarding the K-factor - in today's economy it is hard to justify
business decisions that don't break even.
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of J N
Hiller
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 8:48 PM
> > To: General pattern discussion
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor
Poll
> >
> > IMAC v/s Pattern is almost an apples to oranges comparison. IMAC
popularity can be traced to the TOC and the general appeal of large
colorful high performance readily available aircraft but mostly
visibility. Pattern flying is absent from many local clubs but large
aerobatic airplanes are represented nearly everywhere. The big airplanes
attract the press and interests spectators. Pattern by comparison is
extremely repetitious and boring to those not directly involved.
> > I didn't want to get into this here but I question how many
non-pattern folks would read a free K-Factor. There is a free sample
available there now. Is anybody finding it? The problem I find is
"Pattern" visibility. I couldn't get Google to find the NSRCA when
querying aerobatics, RC aerobatics or pattern, however IMAC showed up.
It's as if some amount of prior knowledge is needed before an outsider
can gain access to pattern activity.
> > AMA doesn't do a very good of job explaining competition events or
activity and if you don't know follow the SIG you are kind of out of
luck. How dose an outsider become aware of and interested in any
competition event without knowing where to look?
> > As for the K-Factor, the publication is second to none. I have been
receiving them since it was several folded 11 x 14 sheets from a copy
machine. The content has for the most part remained about the same;
mostly contest results and district news. It's more of a competition
newsletter with content of interest to those involved and of
questionable interest to outsiders or the mildly interested. There is
little seed for growing interest in any rulebook event on the Internet.
It only happens at the local level with people having fun.
> > To be active competitors in either IMAC or pattern requires a fair
amount of disposable income and time commitment. We draw from the same
shrinking pool of people willing to commit to a weekend out of town to
participate in what appears to be a very regimented activity flown near
the limit of visibility for many. Bigger really is better and we
(Pattern) is somewhat restricted by trying to remain compatible with
FAI.
> > I have probably gone on too long but I don't believe our salvation
lies in a free K-Factor, not that it shouldn't be, it just won't draw
many to our sport.
> > Sorry Derek, forgive me for splattering this even more.
> > Jim Hiller
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Troy
Newman
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 3:44 PM
> > To: General pattern discussion
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Electronic versus Paper K-Factor
Poll
> >
> >
> > Jim,
> >
> > What is really amazing is locally here in AZ and Sothern California
IMAC contests attract 60-70 pilots.
> >
> > IMAC membership is up near 1000 members. They have an online only
newsletter. Not even a magazine.
> >
> > Why would it be horrible to emulate an organization that is
successful like that.
> >
> > They can't be doing anything right they are just IMACers
> > Just something to think about.
> >
> > Troy_______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion________________
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