[NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing
John Pavlick
jpavlick at idseng.com
Mon Aug 3 17:43:15 AKDT 2009
This stuff cracks me up. How hard is it to build a 2-meter Pattern plane that makes weight? I did it on my first attempt. And I was 8 oz. UNDER weight. All I did was weigh everything that went into the plane when I built it. Simple. It's not rocket science guys. EVERY time I see a plane that's "overweight" it's obvious (to me anyway) why. I know I'm not the only one who can build a light airplane. I've seen lots of them. Built by "ordinary" guys like myself. Come on guys, quit sniveling about the weight issue. This is ridiculous! We have a rule that defines the Max. weight. If you can't build an airplane that meets the rules then why should you expect to be able to fly it in a National Competition? Does that make sense? Regardless of whether or not you expect to make the finals or the top 3 (in Intermediate or Adavanced) you should know that your plane should have to comply with the rules. If that makes you stay home instead of driving all the way to Muncie with an "illegal" airplane then I guess it just sucks to be you. :(
Anything we do will be better than what we've been doing. Will people "cheat"? I hope not. It's always possible. But I don't think Pattern guys cheat all that often. Sure, they might try to "get away" with something like NOT weighing their airplane before going to the NATs then scrambling to get it down to the Max weight before they get their award. THAT I've seen a few times. :)
You guys have a whole year to learn how to build a light airplane. I know you can do it. VBG
John Pavlick
http://www.idseng.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Moon
To: General pattern discussion
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 9:13 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing
I agree that everyone should have a plane that is in compliance to compete. My issue is piling a lot of duties on the volunteers as a means of correcting the past. Derek has volunteered to do the weighing and sizing. Is one person (Derek) expected to do this all day on check in day by himself or how many other people is this going to take in order to cover all day? If this counts as your judging assignment, then it reduces the number of available judges.
The NATS is the premier event for the country and I agree we should do what we can to make sure the models are in compliance. But we are just setting up another system that unless there is cut and dry guidance, can be waived or ignored as in the past. And if we just had that guidance, the current system would work fine and not result in extra man power requirements.
Just think of the can of worms, if I know my plane is overweight, I might substitute a smaller tank or 4 cell receiver pack for a 5 cell or substitute a micro servo that I have no intention of actually flying and would swap out right after inspection. The answer of course is to inventory every plane for every part and then compare that inventory sheet with the plane later in the competition. What a man power mess to do all of this! And what if my servo did die and I swapped it out during competition and now my plane does not match the inventory made at check in?
Again, this discussion would never be going on if planes that were determined to be not in compliance were removed from competition as finalists and top finishers these last 2 years as has happened to people in the past. Tough love, yes.
I vote we give Derek a break next summer - doesn't he already have that shirt with the bulls eye on it?
Chris
John Konneker wrote:
Not the point I was trying to make.
Please reread the last two sentences of my note below.
ONLY legal planes would make the finals, semifinals and place if the procedure that has been in place were followed.
Respectfully,
JLK
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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 17:24:22 -0700
From: derekkoopowitz at gmail.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing
Then why even bother to have the rules? How about noise and size? Should we eliminate those rules as well? No one checks weight, size and noise locally... so why should we bother having a rule for it and enforcing it at the Nats?
I don't buy it that attendance will diminish.
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 5:16 PM, John Konneker <jlkonn at hotmail.com> wrote:
I have to agree with Chris.
As someone has pointed out there are basically two types that attend the Nats.
Those that go to renew friendships and for the social aspects and those that are trying to win.
I have been told by more than one pilot attending that they aren't concerned about their plane
being overweight since they have no chance of making the finals or placing and are there for the fun.
I think you will see an even further decrease in attendance if everyone gets weighed at checkin.
The way it has been til now would be fine IF it was followed and enforced.
Otherwise it's just more search for the guilty, punish the innocent.
JLK
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Date: Mon, 3 Aug 2009 19:57:03 -0400
From: cjm767driver at hotmail.com
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing
I think we are making this more difficult than necessary (not aimed at anyone in particular - I just jumped in on Chris's response). We go through the process of weighing the potential winners and finalists already - why not just mandate that the officials APPLY the rule that already exists. No lee way or interpretation necessary. Why weigh and measure if we are going to say "oh never mind, that's ok" when they fail inspection. If they had applied the existing rule, this discussion would not be going on. To implement a new procedure (weighing all at check in) is going to need a bunch of extra help to do and do we really want to have somebody inventory EVERY item on the plane too in order to ensure they don't change props, wheels, rx battery, etc after inspection? Who is going to volunteer to do that to 100+ airplanes? The current way has worked just fine and would still be fine IF THE RULE AS IT EXISTS WAS APPLIED. Simple. Let's not make an overly elaborate witch hunt in response to what happened.
Chris (the other one)
krishlan fitzsimmons wrote:
Where do they weigh at a worlds event? Outside in the wind?
Just curious.
Thx!
Chris
--- On Mon, 8/3/09, dkrev at shaw.ca <dkrev at shaw.ca> wrote:
From: dkrev at shaw.ca <dkrev at shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing
To: "General pattern discussion" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Date: Monday, August 3, 2009, 12:30 PM
We got weighed after each round at the worlds..... Just saying :-)
Sent from Dave's Crackberry
-----Original Message-----
From: John Fuqua <johnfuqua at embarqmail.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 2009 13:35:25
To: 'General pattern discussion'<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing
Better be prepared to weigh 4 or 5 sets of batteries with each competitor as
well as airplanes.
That's the thing with glow. Only dry weight counts. You can load as much
fuel as you wish to any weight! Electric stuck at a fixed max T.O. Weight.
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Derek
Koopowitz
Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:37 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Inspection & Weighing
I don't see an issue with this... we will put a sticker on all items
including all packs that a competitor will use. If a competitor really
wants to cheat then they will do it... nothing we can do will stop that.
I'm also hoping that random inspections will keep people honest and the fear
that if you do fail then you will be disqualified.
On Mon, Aug 3, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Jay Marshall <lightfoot at sc.rr.com> wrote:
I have some concern that the proposals put forward will really work.
If the plane is inspected at check-in then there is too much opportunity to
change things. In particular, batteries, which are a normally removable
item, can be changed to decrease on increase the weight. Do we "sticker" the
battery pack? This means the plane must be disassembled for inspection and
that only that battery pack can be used. At present fuel tanks can also be
under/over filled to adjust ballast for windy conditions.
If this is a serious problem, perhaps there are other solutions.
Planes could be placed in an impound/inspection area immediately
before a flight and fully fueled. The inspection could happen here and
shouldn't delay the flow of the contest.
Another possibility is to adopt a "standard" weight for a battery
pack, then weigh electric planes empty. The "standard" could change as
technology changes.
As John Pavlick will tell you, all major race winners undergo a
teardown and inspection.
Jay Marshall
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