[NSRCA-discussion] YS newbie questions

Sat Oct 25 15:21:18 AKDT 2008

Ed,

The CDI system is way better in my opinion.

The deal right now is the CDI is being tested so that guys like you are
not test subjects. This is a good thing for glow and pattern engines. I
have had awesome performance from the system and so have others. The
issues we have now are making sure it's going to hold up and also fixing
minor  little things like spark plug caps and the HS needle touchiness
on really low oil. By the way on 10-12% oil the HS is not as touchy and
it acts more like an normal engine....

I think there will probably be a new needle valve assembly that will
solve the problem of the tuning on low oil content. Right now the HS
needle is the same as the glow plug engine. Well the mixture is  quite
different between glow plug and spark plug.

Reliability wise the CDI has been extremely good. But then I have had
excellent service from the other DZ engines as well. I know YS is
working on fine tuning some of those parts like new HS needles and so on
if we need them. It's a learning process. The engine is the best engine
I have ever used for pattern bar none. But right now this very second I
would say it might not be as easy to operate the CDI as a regular DZ170.
Once you know what to look for like Bill Cunningham and I have been
running this thing a long time....We have the "new ear" for it. Its way
easier to get working and even more consistent too. Low idle and
tremendous power and grunt.

Before this stuff gets put into production they need to fly it a bunch.
We need to fly it a bunch to make sure guys like you don't have problems
with it. That's all I was trying to say. I think all the issues are
pretty much addressed and are being worked...but we need to get some
time on these engines and get things tested to tell where things stand.
You can't just make a change to a part and say Ok that's it make all the
new production engines that way....because you flew it 5 times today and
it worked.

I really think this could be a new thing for many other glow engines.
Right now the DA150, 100 and 50's are literally as reliable as any
engine on the market. Probably more than most. The big reason is not the
gasoline it's the electronic ignition.

While there have been conversions for years to convert glow to
spark...this is some new territory and YS is doing all the things that
you guys are talking about. Tuning the advance curve to the engines
performance, playing with timing to run lower nitro and less oil. Make
more power and swing larger props at slower rpm. These are all things
that are going to make pattern flying easier and better.

Think 1400rpm idle on a 19 or 20" prop....and downline braking better
than anything out there, electric included. This setup really is the
ticket for F3A...its just not on the shelf yet.

I have some 20% nitro that I'm going to be running in the next week.
Right now the power is down a couple hundred rpm from the 30%/5% oil I
have been running. On a  APC 19-11 Ignition prop or even the  one I
modified myself it's a pretty awesome combination even at the 20% nitro
level. Can we go to low nitro and low oil contents....perhaps. The CDI
has the possibility to do many things...but these things can't be tried
and perfected over night. YS is working on lots of things to improve
this engine and the CDI and low oil content is one set of parameters
that are working. I think the next couple years are going to blow people
away with the changes that are being made. It's a very exciting time
with DSM technology and now the CDI ignition on a glow engine. Even
Horizon and Saito developed a Saito 220 into a gasoline 4 stroke. This
CDI system is a stepping stone to much bigger ideas and products.

Troy

From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Ed Alt
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 12:28 PM
To: General pattern discussion
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS newbie questions

Maybe I'll just go electric after all.

Ed

	----- Original Message ----- 

	From: Troy Newman <mailto:troy at troynewman.net>  

	To: General pattern discussion
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

	Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 1:20 PM

	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS newbie questions

	Matt and others with questions on CDI and lower oil content,

	This is a little long but I feel its information that you guys
will appreciate and you should realize where things are in terms of the
CDI system.

	This engine Ed is talking about is a normal YS 170DZ.  I have
seen the normal YS 170DZ fail on 15% oil content. Busted Con Rod. That
is why YS recommends 20% oil content.

	There are no CDI engines available to the public.. The CDI
engine is still at least a  year off and there is more testing that is
needed. The best and in my opinion the only fuel to run is Cool Power
30% Heli Performance. The oil package is better than any fuel on the
market. I use only this fuel and have had extremely impressive results
with this fuel and this fuel alone for the past 5-6 years. Other that
seem to have problems are bound and determined to run other fuels that
they "know are better" This is not an advertisement for Morgan Fuels.
It's a fact of life and my experience with engines that others have
tried XYZ fuel in. Richard and the YS crew have seen the same results.
Morgan has the magic fuel that is very good on these engines. It's the
oil package 100% proof positive. I have 160DZ's with over 1000runs that
have had bearings and rings replaced and that is all. There is a reason
we run that fuel. It flat works better than any other on the market.
When a guy has a problem with his engine and you ask what fuel he is
running 90% of the time he is not running the good stuff. I know I spend
hrs every week answering emails, phone calls and helping guys work on
their engines even repairing some of them myself.

	The CDI engines do have some new parts in order to allow low oil
content. 

	The low oil content on a non CDI engine that still has the new
parts for low oil makes the engine difficult to tune. The low oil
richens the mixture in effect.  So with the CDI you can lean the pump
and HS way down in order to accommodate the low oil content. On a  glow
plug you can never lean out the middle without detonating and it's still
way too rich at idle.

	Like I have repeated many times. The CDI system that is being
used is in its infant stages at the moment. One thing that we are
finding is while the mixture is easier to set without having a lean
blown up condition from detonation as there is no detonation. On the
other hand it's tough to get the mixture just right in the sweet spot.
It seems as the oil content is reduced to where I am running it now (5%
oil) the HS needle can get a little touchy in hot weather. One click
either way can mean too lean or too rich. This is likely because the HS
needle is closed down a bunch and is only open 5/8 turns.

	Remember this is testing stuff.  This information is being
passed along to the make the products better and improve performance.

	You can't take the idea of just put it on a  spark plug and then
use the same old parts with a new oil content. Yes Spark ignition allows
you to change some things...but you will get into future issues and
changes that are being tested out now. There is a big difference in the
way you tune the two engines. Glow has its methods and Spark acts a
little differently. You have to realize that the people that are
currently running the setup went through some growing pains on figuring
it out. We shared this info with each other as we learned the tricks.
This made others that got the new setup right before the NATS like Brett
and Don Sczur successful with it at the NATS.

	Quique's #1 engine had a failure of the spark plug cap. This was
a mechanical part the spark plug wire that broke.  There is a new spark
plug cap on that ignition box and I have flown that exact ignition box
since.  His #2 engine might just have been a case of not getting the
mixture set properly. I usually get it where I think it needs to be and
then fly it. In that first flight I will tweak the mixture after I land.
There have been more than a few times I have taken off so rich that it
won't work and keeps cooling off and off until the motor is not making
any power at all. Land and lean it down 2 clicks and its perfect. I
thought it was perfect from the tach readings and my "expert" ear.
However it was not.

	So I must repeat the standard 170DZ is just like any other YS DZ
engine and should be run accordingly. There are special parts that make
it CDI and then there are even more additional parts that make it LOW
oil content CDI.

	When the CDI system is released it is likely that it will have
the low oil parts associated with it. To answer your question. No there
are not needle bearings on the connecting rod. However the crank, rod,
lifters, other parts are different than a standard DZ engine to
accommodate the low oil content. I know the parts I converted one of my
engines from Stock out of the box production engine from Central Hobbies
to CDI back in January. Then I converted that same engine to Low oil
capability. I have flown that engine since about May this way. First on
normal 30% Cool Power Heli performance Blend...and now on a  Cool Power
30% nitro/ 5% oil blend.

	The normal fuel is fine with the low oil parts. This means that
YS could start including low oil parts in production engines before the
CDI is released in order to make a easier change over to CDI with low
oil later  on. I have no information about this plan that I can share.

	This setup is very cool and works tremendously well.  I will not
be flying glow plugs anytime soon for sure. There is also work to be
done on the program inside the little magic box. Just an electronic
ignition like off a DA 50 is not what we are working with. I personally
have had 2 different ignition boxes that have different advance curves
in them. If you know the engine you can tell the difference. There is
still plenty of testing to be done. Yes this is exciting technology and
its moving forward very fast at the moment. There is a reason they call
it testing. I would suspect late next year at the very soonest to have
CDI parts available.

	We need to run the engines on this low oil for a long time in
order to find out what the results are. I have been running this new
fuel 5% oil content since about May. I have not had issues. Some others
have gone up to a 10-12% oil content as they felt the engine worked
better for them. Others that are doing the testing on the new engines
are just playing follow the leader as we have been sharing information.
Right before the NATS it was a mad dash to make sure we all knew what
was going on. By next NATS there will be more testing and guys that were
playing follow the setup that works will have tested other setups. Who
knows maybe the 10-12% oil is going to be the ticket in the end Right
now I have about 8 cases of 30% 5% oil though two engines. Even in
100deg AZ temps and its performance has been good. I had some little
issues in June and struggled with it. Those problems were traced down
and the solution proved to be correct. Now it's testing testing testing.

	I know for a fact that a normal on glow plug 170DZ will fail on
15% oil in a few flights. I witnessed it and others experienced the same
thing.

	I hope this helps answer some questions about the system. It's
just going to take lots of flights and a few worn out engines to find
out the weak links in the system.

	Troy Newman

	Team YS

	From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
rcmaster199 at aol.com
	Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 10:14 AM
	To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org; adriancwong at earthlink.net
	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS newbie questions

	Are you guys seeing that it really needs that much oil? The
ignition timing is in a can on this engine and you don't need to use
mixture as your timing mechanism. Is the con-rod still bushed or has YS
switched to needle bearings?

	I suppose the amount of oil in heli fuel won't really hurt
anything but why would one not use, say, 12% oil? It should allow better
gas mileage but not at the expense of bushings breaking down/seezing

	Eddie were you quoted a price? I'm thinking about this one too

	MattK

	-----Original Message-----
	From: Ed Alt <ed_alt at hotmail.com>
	To: adriancwong at earthlink.net; General pattern discussion
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
	Sent: Sat, 25 Oct 2008 11:26 am
	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS newbie questions

	Thanks to all who responded, very helpful. 

	Ed 
	----- Original Message ----- From: <adriancwong at earthlink.net> 
	To: "General pattern discussion"
<nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
	Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 2:09 AM 
	Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] YS newbie questions 

	> Ed, 
	> 
	>>Exhaust: I guess you buy the Hatori 821 and call it a day? Any
special >>mounting tips? 
	> 
	> Most likely you will be couple the 821 pipe with either the
822 or 823 > header - different rise height. Suggest using a Nishioka
quick release > pipe mount instead of the pipe mount that came with the
pipe. The Nishioka > came in three different heights - 20, 29 and 37 mm
rise. Again, it all > depends on which header that you're using. 
	> 
	> 
	>>Engine mount: I've heard a little bit about an isolation mount
that YS >>makes, but it's pricey. What, if anything does this buy you as
compared >>to a Hyde / Budd mount solution? 
	> 
	> Budd mount is good, but I've found it a bit on the noisy side.
Also, I > wish Jerry will switch from 4-40 to 6-32 on the mounting
bolts. So far, > I've found the YS mount the best - between idling and
full throttle. Less > noise and less vibration. 
	> 
	> 
	>>Fuel: What's the real deal with the oil? Not the percentage,
because I >>know that's being experimented with, but what oil does this
engine require >>in the fuel? 
	> 
	> Recommend using either Coolpower 30% heli, or 30% with low
smoke - all > synthetic, don't use anything with caster oil. I preferred
the regular 30% > heli than the low smoke. 
	> 
	>> 
	>>Maintenance: I'ev heard that prior to the first run, you need
to take the >>head cover off and oil up the lifters. True? What kind of
oil, how much >>etc? What about after run? None needed? What other
maintenance tips are >>there to keep this beast going? 
	> 
	> YS shipped all engines with no gap on the valves. However, I
always open > it slightly before the first start. Also, take off the
valve cover and wet > sand the contact surface on a smooth surface with
very fine sand paper. By > doing that, you will eliminate any uneven
high spot on the valve cover, > causing the engine to surge due to air
leaks. 
	> 
	> Open up the cam cover and drop a few drops of oil inside to
lube the the > cam. 
	> 
	> Use either YS or OS F plug 
	> 
	> No after run oil is necessary. After you finish flying, no
need to run out > the excess fuel, unless you're planning not to fly for
over a year. 
	> 
	> 
	>>Break In: What prop? Lower the nitro? Follow the instructions
or is >>there a better way? 
	> 
	> Just use a slightly smaller diameter prop for break-in, and
you can use > the same nitro, just run it rich for the first 4 - 5 tanks
and gradually > lean it. I used a 16.5x13w for break-in, fly it for 5 -
6 flights on > 17x12w. Currently, I'm experimenting between 17.7x11.7
and 18x11 WPN > re-pitched to 18x12. RPM between 7,600 to 7,800 
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> On first start of the day, do not use a starter to prime the
engine - > since when you turn the prop, pump will feed fuel into
engine. Just turn > over the prop 4 - 5 times, then, rock the spinner
cone back and forth 4 - > 5 times to activate the pump, it's ready to
start. You do not need to > prime the engine again after the first
flight. 
	> 
	> Preferably, use a time delay glow driver - to prevent
knocking/ kick back. > Do not take the starter away as soon as the
engine stated, let it spin for > an additional 2 - 3 seconds to ensure
the engine is indeed started to > prevent abrupt stop. 
	> 
	> The 170 is pretty much bullet proof, the last one I sent back
for service > have had over 500 flights. It only needed front and rear
bearing and > piston ring. 
	> 
	> If you have other question, feel free to contact me. 
	> 
	> Adrian 
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> 
	> _______________________________________________ 
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	> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
	> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion 
	>  
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