[NSRCA-discussion] FAI flight time rule

Thu May 15 06:09:01 AKDT 2008

OK. So the 3 minute start time is part of the 8 minute total time.   The 
portion of the flight between the last maneuver and the touch down is the  most 
likely place for the time limit to expire.  How can the time limit  expire at 
touchdown when you can't penalize the pilot after the last  maneuver?  Is this a 
loophole in the way the rule is written?

In a message dated 5/15/2008 9:37:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
ejhaury at comcast.net writes:

Troy is correct. Flight time starts when pilot is  instructed to start, must 
be in air within 3 minutes and total time is 8  minutes with flight time 
ending at touch-down. However - there's no penalty  prescribed for going over the 8 
minutes after the last scored maneuver, as  landing is no longer judged. 

Other than time to get in air, there's no requirements  for take-off (no more 
procedure turn). One may choose to take-off opposite the  direction of flight 
and / or land opposite take-off direction. In a quick  look, I don't find 
where hot-dogging is specifically covered - however, the  "unsportsman like 
behavior" section or "unsafe flying" of the general rules  might possibly be 
invoked. 

These and several other detail changes in the F3A rules  are the reason folks 
are required to re-cert for judging F3A.

Earl

----- Original Message ----- 
From:  _george w.  kennie_ (mailto:geobet at gis.net)  
To: _General pattern  discussion_ (mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org)  
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 7:52  AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI  flight time rule

Wow !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,........Sounds like not  even a penalty for 
"hot-dogging" after the final maneuver !  ARE YOU  SURE , Troy ?????????

Me

----- Original Message ----- 
From:  _Troy  Newman_ (mailto:troy at troynewman.net)  
To: _General pattern  discussion_ (mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org)  
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 1:34  AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI  flight time rule

The penalty for going over time is all scored figures  after time has elapsed 
get a score of zero. The  flight is not a zero...Just  those figures not 
completed.

SO once you exit the box all figures are  complete....If you are still not on 
the ground there would be no penalty  per the rules even if 8mins has expired

Only if you were not "out of the box" yet when the  time expired you would 
get zeros on all figures not  completed.

Which by the way in F3A you are not required to call  entering or leaving the 
box. So if you complete the last figure and have  the 15meter of straight 
flight wings level...you are done....After than  you can take as much time as you 
like to land and that would even include  go arounds...the rule doesn't say 
you can't and there is no penalty for  it. The landing score is gone so you 
didn't violate the landing sequence.  Before a go around was a zero score because 
it didn't follow the landing  sequence. There is no more landing sequence. 
Even applying the AMA  rule for extra passes because the FAI book is silent you 
could not zero  any of the figures, as the AMA rules state the next maneuver 
gets a zero.  Since all maneuvers are already scored there is nothing to zero 
and you  can't go backwards into the sequence and start taking zeros on  
figures completed properly under the rules.

Troy Newman

____________________________________
 From:  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org  
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of  Dave
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 8:52 PM
To:  'General pattern discussion'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI  flight time rule

Jeff, 
10 minutes for  schedules with 23 maneuvers is not much different than 8 
minutes for  schedules with 19 maneuvers (including takeoff and landing).  With  
the older P schedule, it was not difficult to exceed 10 minutes if the  takeoff 
and landing sequences were very large and slow (1 minute for  takeoff seq, 45 
sec to land – pretty easy to save 30 seconds on these  alone), and the 
sequence was big and relaxed.  Now, the Prelim  sequences are 19 maneuvers (as are 
the finals sequences) – which means  about 90 seconds less airtime – so 
dropping the clock from 10 to 8 minutes  is not a biggy. 
My understanding  is that the Prelim sequences were shorted to shorten the 
duration of the  Prelims at the Worlds – 2 minutes x 4 rounds x 100 pilots makes 
a huge  difference. 
Regards, 
Dave  Lockhart 
_DaveL322 at comcast.net_ (mailto:DaveL322 at comcast.net)  

____________________________________

From:  nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org  
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jeff Hill
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 11:33  PM
To: NSRCA Mailing  List
Subject:  [NSRCA-discussion] FAI flight time rule

While reading up on the new FAI rules I came upon  the following paragraphs 
regarding flight  time:

from Section 5.1.11 

If there is a frequency  conflict, the competitor must be allowed a maximum 
of  one 

minute for a radio check  before the start of the 3 minute starting time. The 
timer will audibly  notify 

the competitor when the  minute is finished and immediately start timing the 
3-minutes starting  time. 

The starting  time ceases when the model aircraft commences its take-off 
roll. The  timing device is re-started when 

the model aircraft  commences its take-off roll, and time will stop when the 
model aircraft  first 

touches the runway after  completion of the flight. The total flight time 
allowed is 8  minutes. 

from Section  5.1.12

The competitor has  eight minutes to complete the flight; timing to start 
when the flight  line 

official gives the signal  to the competitor to start his model aircraft  and 
ending when the  model 

aircraft first touches  the runway after completing the flight. 

5.1.11 seems  to say that the competitor gets 8 minutes from the time the TO 
roll  starts. 5.1.12 says the competitor gets 8 minutes from the time s/he is  
told to start the model aircraft. 

If it is 8  minutes total that seems short to me because someone could spend 
3 minutes  of the time getting the engine started and only have 5 for the 
flight. I  know sequences are shorter now, but, we've had pilots exceed 10 minutes 
at  the Nats so I would think 2 fewer minutes would make even the shortest  
sequences tough to do. 

Any rules  gurus out there want to comment? Perhaps electric fliers are 
getting a  break after losing out on the batteries-as-fuel  issue. 

Jeff  Hill

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