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<DIV>OK. So the 3 minute start time is part of the 8 minute total time.
The portion of the flight between the last maneuver and the touch down is the
most likely place for the time limit to expire. How can the time limit
expire at touchdown when you can't penalize the pilot after the last
maneuver? Is this a loophole in the way the rule is written?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 5/15/2008 9:37:19 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
ejhaury@comcast.net writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Troy is correct. Flight time starts when pilot is
instructed to start, must be in air within 3 minutes and total time is 8
minutes with flight time ending at touch-down. However - there's no penalty
prescribed for going over the 8 minutes after the last scored maneuver, as
landing is no longer judged. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Other than time to get in air, there's no requirements
for take-off (no more procedure turn). One may choose to take-off opposite the
direction of flight and / or land opposite take-off direction. In a quick
look, I don't find where hot-dogging is specifically covered - however, the
"unsportsman like behavior" section or "unsafe flying" of the general rules
might possibly be invoked. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>These and several other detail changes in the F3A rules
are the reason folks are required to re-cert for judging F3A.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Earl</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:geobet@gis.net href="mailto:geobet@gis.net">george w.
kennie</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 15, 2008 7:52
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI
flight time rule</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wow !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!,........Sounds like not
even a penalty for "hot-dogging" after the final maneuver ! ARE YOU
SURE , Troy ?????????</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Me</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=mailto:troy@troynewman.net href="mailto:troy@troynewman.net">Troy
Newman</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern
discussion</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 15, 2008 1:34
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI
flight time rule</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>The penalty for going over time is all scored figures
<STRONG><U>after</U></STRONG> time has elapsed get a score of zero. The
flight is <FONT color=#ff0000><STRONG>not</STRONG></FONT> a zero...Just
those figures not completed.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>SO once you exit the box all figures are
complete....If you are still not on the ground there would be no penalty
per the rules even if 8mins has expired</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Only if you were not "out of the box" yet when the
time expired you would get zeros on all figures not
completed.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Which by the way in F3A you are not required to call
entering or leaving the box. So if you complete the last figure and have
the 15meter of straight flight wings level...you are done....After than
you can take as much time as you like to land and that would even include
go arounds...the rule doesn't say you can't and there is no penalty for
it. The landing score is gone so you didn't violate the landing sequence.
Before a go around was a zero score because it didn't follow the landing
sequence. There is no more landing sequence. Even applying the AMA
rule for extra passes because the FAI book is silent you could not zero
any of the figures, as the AMA rules state the next maneuver gets a zero.
Since all maneuvers are already scored there is nothing to zero and you
can't go backwards into the sequence and start taking zeros on
figures completed properly under the rules.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=109002205-15052008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Troy Newman</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dave<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 14, 2008 8:52 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
'General pattern discussion'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] FAI
flight time rule<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jeff,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">10 minutes for
schedules with 23 maneuvers is not much different than 8 minutes for
schedules with 19 maneuvers (including takeoff and landing). With
the older P schedule, it was not difficult to exceed 10 minutes if the
takeoff and landing sequences were very large and slow (1 minute for
takeoff seq, 45 sec to land – pretty easy to save 30 seconds on these
alone), and the sequence was big and relaxed. Now, the Prelim
sequences are 19 maneuvers (as are the finals sequences) – which means
about 90 seconds less airtime – so dropping the clock from 10 to 8 minutes
is not a biggy.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">My understanding
is that the Prelim sequences were shorted to shorten the duration of the
Prelims at the Worlds – 2 minutes x 4 rounds x 100 pilots makes a huge
difference.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Regards,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dave
Lockhart<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><A
title=mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net
href="mailto:DaveL322@comcast.net">DaveL322@comcast.net</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Jeff Hill<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, May 14, 2008 11:33
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> NSRCA Mailing
List<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>
[NSRCA-discussion] FAI flight time rule</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">While reading up on the new FAI rules I came upon
the following paragraphs regarding flight
time:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">from Section 5.1.11<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">If there is a frequency
conflict, the competitor must be allowed a maximum of
one <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">minute for a radio check
before the start of the 3 minute starting time. The timer will audibly
notify <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">the competitor when the
minute is finished and immediately start timing the 3-minutes starting
time. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">The starting
time ceases when the model aircraft commences its take-off roll. The
timing device is re-started when <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">the model aircraft
commences its take-off roll, and time will stop when the model aircraft
first <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">touches the runway after
completion of the flight. The total flight time allowed is 8
minutes. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=apple-style-span><FONT face=Helvetica
size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">from Section
5.1.12</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"> The competitor has
eight minutes to complete the flight; timing to start when the flight
line <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">official gives the signal
to the competitor to start his model aircraft and ending when the
model <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">aircraft first touches
the runway after completing the flight.<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"> </SPAN></B><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=apple-style-span><FONT face=Helvetica
size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">5.1.11 seems
to say that the competitor gets 8 minutes from the time the TO roll
starts. 5.1.12 says the competitor gets 8 minutes from the time s/he is
told to start the model aircraft. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT
face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=apple-style-span><FONT face=Helvetica
size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">If it is 8
minutes total that seems short to me because someone could spend 3 minutes
of the time getting the engine started and only have 5 for the flight. I
know sequences are shorter now, but, we've had pilots exceed 10 minutes at
the Nats so I would think 2 fewer minutes would make even the shortest
sequences tough to do. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face=Helvetica
size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=apple-style-span><FONT face=Helvetica
size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">Any rules
gurus out there want to comment? Perhaps electric fliers are getting a
break after losing out on the batteries-as-fuel
issue. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN class=apple-style-span><FONT face=Helvetica
size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica">Jeff
Hill</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Helvetica size=1><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 7.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P>
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