[NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
Derek Koopowitz
derekkoopowitz at gmail.com
Wed Mar 19 21:27:10 AKDT 2008
Make 1 change at a time, Chris. Move the CG first.
_____
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of krishlan
fitzsimmons
Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2008 9:45 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
Bryan,
I was hopeful to hear back from you on this before I made a change. No
worries though, I know you are busy, and you've been a great help with all
of us..
So if I go cg forward, I will need less positive in the wings as I wil need
up trim in the ele's, correct? Or should I add 1/2 degree of down thrust?
After seeing my uplines and my horizontal lines, I don't think I need it.
But, what do I know? lol
I think the cg forward could help my snaps and my downlines. I love the way
it flys inverted and rolling right now, but I need to change.. I'll try the
cg forward and less positive.
C
vicenterc at comcast.net wrote:
Chris,
Very good information. How much right thrust? I think you are correct, move
the CG a little more forward. It could help the snaps also.
--
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: krishlan fitzsimmons
> Ok Bryan,
>
> Here's how I went out today and man was I suprised, 0 degree down thrust,
0
> stab, 3/4 positive in the wing.. Cg forward where Budd recommends. What a
> difference.. I had a neutral elevator for the first time since I owned the
plane
> without adjusting things.. Uplines were good, downlines pulled to the
canopy
> still. Horizontal lines, the plane DID feel more locked into the line..
It's
> never felt like that.. Mixing, well it still needed about 15% up mix in
knifes,
> down from 30% though. Inverted nearly hands off. 45 roll to inverted
slowly
> drops the nose. 45 downs are locked in. Snaps, well they suck for some
reason. w
> Not from this, but when I did cg, and other changes before, I changed
throws cuz
> the snaps sucked. It took alot more down ele, and aileron for inverted
snaps..
> And still, when I start the snap, it breaks, then slowly gets into the
snap,
> then speeds up too fast causing an overrotation. Regular snaps are now too
fast
> (easy to cure though with a different dual rate
> setting).
> I think my cg could go forward to help with the up ele needed in knife,
and
> also the pull to canopy on downlines maybe?? Or should I play with the
wing
> adjusters more?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
>
> Nat Penton wrote:
> Wayne
> You missed the seminar - that was the rest room .
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wayne Galligan
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
>
>
> John Crapper was not the original inventor of the toilet. However Thomas
> Crapper was one of the people that was responsible for it popularity. Not
to
> sure where John L Crapper came from but the original inventor was John
> Harington. So maybe that's how the "John" and the "Crapper" have been come
to
> be known as.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wayne Galligan
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
>
>
> Water Closet (WC) is a toilet that disposes of the waste by using water to
> flush it through a drainpipe to another location. Modern toilets
incorporate an
> 'S' bend; this 'trap' creates a water seal which remains filled the 'S'
bend
> also provides siphon action which helps accelerate the flushing process.
Water
> filling up the bowl creates a high pressure area which forces the water
past the
> S bend. At the S bend when water starts to move it creates a vacuum that
pulls
> the water and waste out of the toilet. When no more water is left then the
air
> stops the siphon or vacuum process. At that point the water that is going
into
> the bowl continues to fill up the bowl to equalize the bowl and the S
bend. This
> ends the cycle of one flush. Since there were no rooms designated for
toilets
> or crappers as they were called (named after John L Crapper, inventor of
the
> flush toilet) the term Water Closet was coined as homes that had the out
houses
> moved indoors were usually located in
> closets in the home.
>
> Flush away............
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Karl G. Mueller
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
>
>
> Vicente,
>
> "WC" actually is the short form of "Water Closet".
> That's what the early Toilets were called.
>
> Karl G. Mueller
> kgamueller at rogers.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: vicenterc at comcast.net
> To: adriancwong at earthlink.net ; NSRCA Mailing List
> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 10:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
>
>
> WC = toilet. I wonder how many went and check.
>
> --
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: adriancwong at earthlink.net
> BODY { FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY:
> Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff }
> body{font-family:
> Geneva,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:
#ffffff;color:
> black;} "WC", huh? I haven't heard that word since I've moved back from
Hong
> Kong in the early 90's.
>
> May be I should try the knife edge on a vertical down line, instead of
doing it
> horizontally?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vicenterc at comcast.net
> Sent: Mar 17, 2008 7:00 PM
> To: adriancwong at earthlink.net, NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
>
> That is called Coriolis accerelation. That is why the water closets flush
to
> the right in the North hemisphere and to the left in the South hemisphere
> (looking the water closet from above). If going down straight you are
close to
> the ecuator. If this do not happens as described the water closet needs to
be
> trimmed.
>
> --
> Vicente "Vince" Bortone
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: adriancwong at earthlink.net
> I think Bryan is hiding in his wind tunnel trying to duplicate the same
> condition.
>
> I don't think it was my digits. It's probably between the earth's
gravitational
> pull and soething in the northern hemisphere. I bet the plane will do the
exact
> opposite if I fly it in Australia ... .-)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Derek Koopowitz
> Sent: Mar 17, 2008 3:36 PM
> To: NSRCA Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
>
> I think he wishes it was his thumbs... :)
>
> The push to the belly was more than the pull to the canopy... the pull was
> very slight.
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 3:24 PM, krishlan fitzsimmons
> wrote:
> I was going to tell Adrian his thumbs cause this..
> Just kidding of course Adrian..
>
> C
>
> Nat Penton wrote:
>
> Where is Bryan when you need him
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 10:17 PM
> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
>
>
> > Bryan,
> >
> > What cause the plane to pull to the belly on one rudder, and to the
canopy
> > on the other rudder during knife edge.
> >
> > Thx,
> >
> > Adrian
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> >>From: shinden1 at cox.net
> >>Sent: Mar 16, 2008 7:17 PM
> >>To: NSRCA Mailing List
>
> >>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
> >>
> >>Lance you need to find out exactly where the wing inc . is.
> >>I think if you move your c/g back a little it will help take some of the
> >>up trim out But you prob need more pos inc, in the wing so we need to
know
> >>where you are at right now to determine exactly where to go
> >>Bryan
>
>
> >>---- Lance Van Nostrand wrote:
> >>> Bryan,
> >>>
> >>> The discussion list moves faster than I can try this stuff out. Too
bad
> >>> I
> >>> have to work...
> >>>
> >>> I first only moved my CG forward significantly and have improved
overall
> >>> tracking. It was windy Saturday and wind penetration were good.
> >>> Bryan's
> >>> suggestion was correct on CG movement to make this improvement.
However
> >>> with the forward CG (and resultant uptrim) it pulls to the canopy
> >>> slightly
> >>> on downlines. At this point I noticed that during inverted flight,
> >>> rudder
> >>> input caused a pull to the belly (plane rose). This was weird. I then
> >>> raised the incidence 2 turns and it fixed the inverted flight problem
> >>> but it
> >>> seemed to make the canopy pul! l worse . Interestingly, KE flight was
not
> >>> noticeably affected.
> >>>
> >>> The other affect is that inverted 45 downlines drop toward earth
faster
> >>> than
> >>> upright 45s (which track nicely). Before this change, both 45s were
> >>> fine.
> >>>
> >>> Is this the expectation?
> >>>
> >>> --Lance
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> >>NSRCA-disc! ussion@ l ists.nsrca.org
> >>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> > http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
now.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> ---------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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From: krishlan fitzsimmons <homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:24:07 +0000
Ok Bryan,
Here's how I went out today and man was I suprised, 0 degree down thrust, 0
stab, 3/4 positive in the wing.. Cg forward where Budd recommends. What a
difference.. I had a neutral elevator for the first time since I owned the
plane without adjusting things.. Uplines were good, downlines pulled to the
canopy still. Horizontal lines, the plane DID feel more locked into the
line.. It's never felt like that.. Mixing, well it still needed about 15% up
mix in knifes, down from 30% though. Inverted nearly hands off. 45 roll to
inverted slowly drops the nose. 45 downs are locked in. Snaps, well they
suck for some reason. Not from this, but when I did cg, and other changes
before, I changed throws cuz the snaps sucked. It took alot more down ele,
and aileron for inverted snaps.. And still, when I start the snap, it
breaks, then slowly gets into the snap, then speeds up too fast causing an
overrotation. Regular snaps are now too fast (easy to cure though with a
different dual rate setting).
I think my cg could go forward to help with the up ele needed in knife, and
also the pull to canopy on downlines maybe?? Or should I play with the wing
adjusters more?
Thanks,
Chris
Nat Penton <natpenton at centurytel.net> wrote:
Wayne
You missed the seminar - that was the rest room <G>.
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne <mailto:wgalligan at att.net> Galligan
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
John Crapper was not the original inventor of the toilet. However Thomas
Crapper was one of the people that was responsible for it popularity. Not
to sure where John L Crapper came from but the original inventor was John
Harington. So maybe that's how the "John" and the "Crapper" have been come
to be known as.
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne <mailto:wgalligan at att.net> Galligan
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
Water Closet (WC) is a toilet <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet> that
disposes of the waste by using water to flush it through a drainpipe to
another location. Modern toilets incorporate an 'S' bend; this 'trap'
creates a water seal which remains filled the 'S' bend also provides siphon
action which helps accelerate the flushing process. Water filling up the
bowl creates a high pressure area which forces the water past the S bend. At
the S bend when water starts to move it creates a vacuum that pulls the
water and waste out of the toilet. When no more water is left then the air
stops the siphon or vacuum process. At that point the water that is going
into the bowl continues to fill up the bowl to equalize the bowl and the S
bend. This ends the cycle of one flush. Since there were no rooms
designated for toilets or crappers as they were called (named after John L
Crapper, inventor of the flush toilet) the term Water Closet was coined as
homes that had the out houses moved indoors were usually located in closets
in the home.
Flush away............
----- Original Message -----
From: Karl G. Mueller <mailto:kgamueller at rogers.com>
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
Vicente,
"WC" actually is the short form of "Water Closet".
That's what the early Toilets were called.
Karl G. Mueller
kgamueller at rogers.com
----- Original Message -----
From: vicenterc at comcast.net
To: adriancwong at earthlink.net ; NSRCA Mailing
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> List
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2008 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
WC = toilet. I wonder how many went and check.
--
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: adriancwong at earthlink.net
"WC", huh? I haven't heard that word since I've moved back from Hong Kong in
the early 90's.
May be I should try the knife edge on a vertical down line, instead of doing
it horizontally?
-----Original Message-----
From: vicenterc at comcast.net
Sent: Mar 17, 2008 7:00 PM
To: adriancwong at earthlink.net, NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
That is called Coriolis accerelation. That is why the water closets flush
to the right in the North hemisphere and to the left in the South hemisphere
(looking the water closet from above). If going down straight you are close
to the ecuator. If this do not happens as described the water closet needs
to be trimmed.
--
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: adriancwong at earthlink.net
I think Bryan is hiding in his wind tunnel trying to duplicate the same
condition.
I don't think it was my digits. It's probably between the earth's
gravitational pull and soething in the northern hemisphere. I bet the plane
will do the exact opposite if I fly it in Australia ... .-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Derek Koopowitz
Sent: Mar 17, 2008 3:36 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
I think he wishes it was his thumbs... :)
The push to the belly was more than the pull to the canopy... the pull was
very slight.
On Mon, Mar 17, 2008 at 3:24 PM, krishlan fitzsimmons
<homeremodeling2003 at yahoo.com> wrote:
I was going to tell Adrian his thumbs cause this..
Just kidding of course Adrian..
C
Nat Penton <natpenton at centurytel.net> wrote:
Where is Bryan when you need him
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2008 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
> Bryan,
>
> What cause the plane to pull to the belly on one rudder, and to the canopy
> on the other rudder during knife edge.
>
> Thx,
>
> Adrian
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: shinden1 at cox.net
>>Sent: Mar 16, 2008 7:17 PM
>>To: NSRCA Mailing List
>>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] triangulation trimming
>>
>>Lance you need to find out exactly where the wing inc . is.
>>I think if you move your c/g back a little it will help take some of the
>>up trim out But you prob need more pos inc, in the wing so we need to know
>>where you are at right now to determine exactly where to go
>>Bryan
>>---- Lance Van Nostrand wrote:
>>> Bryan,
>>>
>>> The discussion list moves faster than I can try this stuff out. Too bad
>>> I
>>> have to work...
>>>
>>> I first only moved my CG forward significantly and have improved overall
>>> tracking. It was windy Saturday and wind penetration were good.
>>> Bryan's
>>> suggestion was correct on CG movement to make this improvement. However
>>> with the forward CG (and resultant uptrim) it pulls to the canopy
>>> slightly
>>> on downlines. At this point I noticed that during inverted flight,
>>> rudder
>>> input caused a pull to the belly (plane rose). This was weird. I then
>>> raised the incidence 2 turns and it fixed the inverted flight problem
>>> but it
>>> seemed to make the canopy pul! l worse . Interestingly, KE flight was
not
>>> noticeably affected.
>>>
>>> The other affect is that inverted 45 downlines drop toward earth faster
>>> than
>>> upright 45s (which track nicely). Before this change, both 45s were
>>> fine.
>>>
>>> Is this the expectation?
>>>
>>> --Lance
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
>>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>>_______________________________________________
>>NSRCA-discussion mailing list
>>NSRCA-disc! ussion@ l <mailto:NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
ists.nsrca.org
>>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
> _______________________________________________
> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
>
_______________________________________________
NSRCA-discussion mailing list
NSRCA-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
Chris
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_______________________________________________
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http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
Chris
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