[NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trimming , left rudder tuck downline pulls
Koenig, Tom
Tom.Koenig at actewagl.com.au
Tue Mar 11 12:33:21 AKDT 2008
Well...even though I have learnt this from Bryan many years ago, I too
am GLUED to the computer, awaiting- I seem to have lost my path
recently. It was just easier to simply fly the pig, rather than do the
work!!!
There are probably only a handful of people on this PLANET who I'd
listen to for trimming or design advise, starting with Bryan and Nat!
I will never again 'trust' the big names for aeroplane design etc.
Tom
________________________________
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of
vicenterc at comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, 12 March 2008 6:42 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trimming ,left rudder tuck
downline pulls
I wonder how many are looking for the e-mail tonight. For sure I am one
of them. Triangulation Method, that sound interesting.
Thanks,
--
Vicente "Vince" Bortone
-------------- Original message --------------
From: <shinden1 at cox.net>
> Don I will have a complete response tonight
> along with the" Hebert traingulation method" for perfect
trimming,
> I know it gets confusing sometimes but I`ll try to explain it
a little better
> tonight
> Bryan
>
> ---- Don Ramsey wrote:
> > I'm with Jim in not understand the reason some of the
incidence changes
> > work. Consider increasing the incidence for adjusting the
push to the belly
> > in knife edge. My reasoning would be; increase the
incidence, put in some
> > down elevator to fly straight and level. Roll to knife edge
and the model
> > would then push to the belly more severely. What am I
missing?
> >
> > Don
> >
> > -----Original Me! ssage-- ---
> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
> > [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf
Of James Oddino
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 10:59 AM
> > To: NSRCA Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trimming , left
rudder tuck
> > downline pulls
> >
> > Bryan,
> >
> > I'm trying to figure out how increasing the wing incidence,
I assume
> > with respect to the fuselage, will get rid of a pull to the
canopy on
> > a vertical downline. Is it because you need to crank in some
down
> > trim to make it fly level? Or is it because the tail flies
higher in
> > level flight and the higher vertical cg creates a couple
pushing the
> > nose down during the vertical downline?
> >
> > I assume that if one could achieve a good vertical downline
with power
> > o! ff, he could then adjust the thrust to get a good
vertical upline?
> > It would seem that the thrust is part of what made it fly
level and
> > you would get into an endless loop chasing things around.
What is the
> > sequence for getting what you want?
> >
> > I adjust the relation between the downthrust and wing to get
a good
> > vertical upline and trim out the pull in the downline like
Chad. Tell
> > us how we can get a combination of vertical up with power,
level with
> > power (less power?) and vertical down without power that are
all good
> > without throttle to elevator trim.
> >
> > Jim O
> >
> >
> > On Mar 10, 2008, at 5:31 PM,
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Chad having a small tuck to the belly on left rudder
only,,
> > > is always a result in a little too much ta! il weig ht
,,providing
> > > the stab halves and elevator halves are correct.
> > > thats whats happening in your wandering 4/5`s
> > > the tail weight as is ,,is making you add a little down
elevator
> > > trim because the wing is flying a little more positive.
> > > You want to create the pos angle of attack with the wing
only use
> > > the tail weight only to adjust the feel for rolls and
inverted flight.
> > > engine thrust is contributory But ,not doing anything in
the left
> > > knife edge.
> > > it would be happening in the right rudder too.
> > > sorry Nat..
> > > approach it like this, before you reset the down thrust
,,,because
> > > we want to know what really fixed it
> > > increase the wing inc 1/32 " more positive or till it
stopps
> > > pulling in the downline , some airplane require the w! ing
mor e than
> > > 1/2 deg depending on weight and airfoils 1/2 pos. is not a
hard
> > > deck and you will have to move the cg forward to remove
the left
> > > rudder knife mix ,,move it till you find a sweet spot ,
between
> > > downlines and both knife edges.
> > > , Always remember tail heavy makes the elevator and rudder
> > > sensitive and nose wweightmakes them a little numb but
much more
> > > effective
> > > your spins,snaps entry and exits ,, up and downline,45`s
will be
> > > corrected
> > > you will also see improvement in the wind due to the
forward c/g and
> > > pos inc. add pos wing inc till it stops pulling to the
canopy in the
> > > downs
> > > and let us know what happens
> > > Bryan
> > > darn now I have given away the family secrets ,And
> > > I have just ma! de it h arder to beat Chad
> > >
> > > ---- Nat Penton wrote:
> > >> Chad
> > >> Your problem is caused by the large difference between
T/L and
> > >> wing. Reduce
> > >> the downthrust by 1 deg and reduce the wing incidence by
1 deg ,
> > >> and test.
> > >>
> > >> We will go from there.
> > >>
> > >> Your excess downthrust requires up elev trim when under
power. You
> > >> need to
> > >> adjust wing and T/L to avoid other problems. If you just
lower the
> > >> wing inc
> > >> it will go to the belly in knife. If you just reduce the
D/T it
> > >> will go to
> > >> the canopy in
> > >> knife. Nat
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
>! ; > >> From: "Chad Northeast"
> > >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
> > >> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 4:57 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Ok you trim masters, here is a tricky one for you.
> > >>>
> > >>> Bryan and I have been through this a bit last year but I
ran out
> > >>> of time
> > >>> before the Worlds to fix it and just flew with what I
had.
> > >>>
> > >>> On my Twister I have this pesky problem, the setup is
like so,
> > >>>
> > >>> wing = 1/2+ Bryans suggestion and I like it
> > >>> stab = 0
> > >>> motor = factory claims 2.5 down, have not measured but
could if
> > >! >> ; asked, I
> > >>> have added more to cure a problem see below
> > >>> CG = has been anywhere from 275 to 300mm from TE mostly
with the
> > >>> same
> > >>> result. Currently its around 285-290 and it feels good
at that
> > >>> point. 45
> > >>> ups inverted track almost hands off if under enough
power.
> > >>>
> > >>> Symptoms,
> > >>>
> > >>> Plane flies well, at this setup I need 0 mix right
rudder to ele
> > >>> in knife,
> > >>> and about 2% up ele with left rudder in knife,
> > >>> about 1/32" down elevator with idle to fix a downline
> > >>> Added downthrust as the increase in wing inc. and more
forward CG
> > >>> really
> > >>> helped the mix in knife and made rollers ! easier, but
forced an
> > >>> increase in
> > >>> downthrust as the plane started pulling to the canopy on
uplines.
> > >>> Downline mix remained the same.
> > >>>
> > >>> The big problem I cannot resolve is this, a 45 deg down
upright
> > >>> (motor at
> > >>> idle) the plane pitches to the belly and will not track
on its own
> > >>> for any
> > >>> length of time. If I switch the idle-down mix off its
rock solid
> > >>> on that
> > >>> line.
> > >>>
> > >>> I am open to all suggestions now that I have a bit of
time to play
> > >>> with
> > >>> this, I hope Bryan chimes in some more as I would like
to continue
> > >>> where
> > >>> we left off last fall. If you su! ggest s omething I
will do my best
> > >>> to give
> > >>> it a go and let you know how it works (provided it
doesn't snow!)
> > >>>
> > >>> The plane is basically super locked in with this setup,
except for
> > >>> the
> > >>> silly 45 down upright, which is a problem in cubans and
such.
> > >>>
> > >>> Comments and thoughts from the masters are most
appreciated :) I
> > >>> consider
> > >>> myself one of the, cant really trim that well but can
fly through
> > >>> it just
> > >>> fine types :)
> > >>>
> > >>> Chad
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> NSRCA-discussion mailing list
> > >>> NSRCA-discussion at lists.n! srca.or g
> > >>> http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion
> > >>>
> > >>
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