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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=228182420-11032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Well...even though I have learnt this from Bryan many years
ago, I too am GLUED to the computer, awaiting- I seem to have lost my path
recently. It was just easier to simply fly the pig, rather than do the
work!!!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=228182420-11032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=228182420-11032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>There are probably only a handful of people on this PLANET
who I'd listen to for trimming or design advise, starting with Bryan and
Nat!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=228182420-11032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=228182420-11032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>I will never again 'trust' the big names for aeroplane
design etc.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=228182420-11032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=228182420-11032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Tom</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=228182420-11032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=228182420-11032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=228182420-11032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=228182420-11032008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>vicenterc@comcast.net<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, 12 March 2008 6:42
AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
the joy of trimming ,left rudder tuck downline pulls<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I wonder how many are looking for the e-mail tonight. For sure I
am one of them. Triangulation Method, that sound
interesting.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--<BR>Vicente "Vince" Bortone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: <shinden1@cox.net>
<BR><BR>> Don I will have a complete response tonight <BR>> along with
the" Hebert traingulation method" for perfect trimming, <BR>> I know it
gets confusing sometimes but I`ll try to explain it a little better <BR>>
tonight <BR>> Bryan <BR>> <BR>> ---- Don Ramsey
<DONRAMSEY@GMAIL.COM>wrote: <BR>> > I'm with Jim in not understand the
reason some of the incidence changes <BR>> > work. Consider increasing
the incidence for adjusting the push to the belly <BR>> > in knife edge.
My reasoning would be; increase the incidence, put in some <BR>> > down
elevator to fly straight and level. Roll to knife edge and the model <BR>>
> would then push to the belly more severely. What am I missing? <BR>>
> <BR>> > Don <BR>> > <BR>> > -----Original Me! ssage--
--- <BR>> > From: nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org <BR>> >
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of James Oddino
<BR>> > Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 10:59 AM <BR>> > To: NSRCA
Mailing List <BR>> > Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trimming
, left rudder tuck <BR>> > downline pulls <BR>> > <BR>> >
Bryan, <BR>> > <BR>> > I'm trying to figure out how increasing the
wing incidence, I assume <BR>> > with respect to the fuselage, will get
rid of a pull to the canopy on <BR>> > a vertical downline. Is it
because you need to crank in some down <BR>> > trim to make it fly
level? Or is it because the tail flies higher in <BR>> > level flight
and the higher vertical cg creates a couple pushing the <BR>> > nose
down during the vertical downline? <BR>> > <BR>> > I assume that
if one could achieve a good vertical downline with power <BR>> > o! ff,
he could then adjust the thrust to get a good vertical upline? <BR>> >
It would seem that the thrust is part of what made it fly level and <BR>>
> you would get into an endless loop chasing things around. What is the
<BR>> > sequence for getting what you want? <BR>> > <BR>> >
I adjust the relation between the downthrust and wing to get a good <BR>>
> vertical upline and trim out the pull in the downline like Chad. Tell
<BR>> > us how we can get a combination of vertical up with power, level
with <BR>> > power (less power?) and vertical down without power that
are all good <BR>> > without throttle to elevator trim. <BR>> >
<BR>> > Jim O <BR>> > <BR>> > <BR>> > On Mar 10, 2008,
at 5:31 PM, <SHINDEN1@COX.NET><SHINDEN1@COX.NET><BR>> > wrote: <BR>>
> <BR>> > > Chad having a small tuck to the belly on left rudder
only,, <BR>> > > is always a result in a little too much ta! il weig
ht ,,providing <BR>> > > the stab halves and elevator halves are
correct. <BR>> > > thats whats happening in your wandering 4/5`s
<BR>> > > the tail weight as is ,,is making you add a little down
elevator <BR>> > > trim because the wing is flying a little more
positive. <BR>> > > You want to create the pos angle of attack with
the wing only use <BR>> > > the tail weight only to adjust the feel
for rolls and inverted flight. <BR>> > > engine thrust is
contributory But ,not doing anything in the left <BR>> > > knife
edge. <BR>> > > it would be happening in the right rudder too.
<BR>> > > sorry Nat.. <BR>> > > approach it like this,
before you reset the down thrust ,,,because <BR>> > > we want to know
what really fixed it <BR>> > > increase the wing inc 1/32 " more
positive or till it stopps <BR>> > > pulling in the downline , some
airplane require the w! ing mor e than <BR>> > > 1/2 deg depending on
weight and airfoils 1/2 pos. is not a hard <BR>> > > deck and you
will have to move the cg forward to remove the left <BR>> > > rudder
knife mix ,,move it till you find a sweet spot , between <BR>> > >
downlines and both knife edges. <BR>> > > , Always remember tail
heavy makes the elevator and rudder <BR>> > > sensitive and nose
wweightmakes them a little numb but much more <BR>> > > effective
<BR>> > > your spins,snaps entry and exits ,, up and downline,45`s
will be <BR>> > > corrected <BR>> > > you will also see
improvement in the wind due to the forward c/g and <BR>> > > pos inc.
add pos wing inc till it stops pulling to the canopy in the <BR>> > >
downs <BR>> > > and let us know what happens <BR>> > > Bryan
<BR>> > > darn now I have given away the family secrets ,And <BR>>
> > I have just ma! de it h arder to beat Chad <G><BR>> > >
<BR>> > > ---- Nat Penton <NATPENTON@CENTURYTEL.NET>wrote: <BR>>
> >> Chad <BR>> > >> Your problem is caused by the large
difference between T/L and <BR>> > >> wing. Reduce <BR>> >
>> the downthrust by 1 deg and reduce the wing incidence by 1 deg ,
<BR>> > >> and test. <BR>> > >> <BR>> > >>
We will go from there. <BR>> > >> <BR>> > >> Your
excess downthrust requires up elev trim when under power. You <BR>> >
>> need to <BR>> > >> adjust wing and T/L to avoid other
problems. If you just lower the <BR>> > >> wing inc <BR>> >
>> it will go to the belly in knife. If you just reduce the D/T it
<BR>> > >> will go to <BR>> > >> the canopy in
<BR>> > >> knife. Nat <BR>> > >> <BR>> >
>> ----- Original Message ----- <BR>>! ; > >> From: "Chad
Northeast" <CHADNORTHEAST@SHAW.CA><BR>> > >> To: "NSRCA Mailing
List" <NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.F3A.US><BR>> > >> Sent: Monday,
March 10, 2008 4:57 PM <BR>> > >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
the joy of trim <BR>> > >> <BR>> > >> <BR>> >
>>> Ok you trim masters, here is a tricky one for you. <BR>> >
>>> <BR>> > >>> Bryan and I have been through this a
bit last year but I ran out <BR>> > >>> of time <BR>> >
>>> before the Worlds to fix it and just flew with what I had.
<BR>> > >>> <BR>> > >>> On my Twister I have
this pesky problem, the setup is like so, <BR>> > >>> <BR>>
> >>> wing = 1/2+ Bryans suggestion and I like it <BR>> >
>>> stab = 0 <BR>> > >>> motor = factory claims 2.5
down, have not measured but could if <BR>> > >! >> ; asked, I
<BR>> > >>> have added more to cure a problem see below
<BR>> > >>> CG = has been anywhere from 275 to 300mm from TE
mostly with the <BR>> > >>> same <BR>> > >>>
result. Currently its around 285-290 and it feels good at that <BR>> >
>>> point. 45 <BR>> > >>> ups inverted track almost
hands off if under enough power. <BR>> > >>> <BR>> >
>>> Symptoms, <BR>> > >>> <BR>> > >>>
Plane flies well, at this setup I need 0 mix right rudder to ele <BR>> >
>>> in knife, <BR>> > >>> and about 2% up ele with
left rudder in knife, <BR>> > >>> about 1/32" down elevator
with idle to fix a downline <BR>> > >>> Added downthrust as the
increase in wing inc. and more forward CG <BR>> > >>> really
<BR>> > >>> helped the mix in knife and made rollers ! easier,
but forced an <BR>> > >>> increase in <BR>> >
>>> downthrust as the plane started pulling to the canopy on uplines.
<BR>> > >>> Downline mix remained the same. <BR>> >
>>> <BR>> > >>> The big problem I cannot resolve is
this, a 45 deg down upright <BR>> > >>> (motor at <BR>> >
>>> idle) the plane pitches to the belly and will not track on its
own <BR>> > >>> for any <BR>> > >>> length of
time. If I switch the idle-down mix off its rock solid <BR>> >
>>> on that <BR>> > >>> line. <BR>> >
>>> <BR>> > >>> I am open to all suggestions now that
I have a bit of time to play <BR>> > >>> with <BR>> >
>>> this, I hope Bryan chimes in some more as I would like to
continue <BR>> > >>> where <BR>> > >>> we left
off last fall. If you su! ggest s omething I will do my best <BR>> >
>>> to give <BR>> > >>> it a go and let you know how
it works (provided it doesn't snow!) <BR>> > >>> <BR>> >
>>> The plane is basically super locked in with this setup, except
for <BR>> > >>> the <BR>> > >>> silly 45 down
upright, which is a problem in cubans and such. <BR>> > >>>
<BR>> > >>> Comments and thoughts from the masters are most
appreciated :) I <BR>> > >>> consider <BR>> >
>>> myself one of the, cant really trim that well but can fly through
<BR>> > >>> it just <BR>> > >>> fine types :)
<BR>> > >>> <BR>> > >>> Chad <BR>> >
>>> <BR>> > >>>
_______________________________________________ <BR>> > >>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list <BR>> > >>>
NSRCA-discussion@lists.n! srca.or g <BR>> > >>>
http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion <BR>> >
>>> <BR>> > >> <BR>> > >>
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