[NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trimming , left rudder tuck downline pulls

[shinden1 at cox.net]

Right on  target Matt !
Bryan
---- Matthew Frederick <mjfrederick at cox.net> wrote: 
> I must be getting the hang of this... first thing I thought was add a little 
> incidence in the wing. Even though the down thrust is a bit much... Like 
> Bryan says all the time: wing incidence trumps it all. CG, thrust, and stab 
> incidence are used for extreme fine tuning. You gotta get that incidence 
> right first...
> 
> Matt
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <shinden1 at cox.net>
> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 7:31 PM
> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trimming ,left rudder tuck downline 
> pulls
> 
> 
> > Chad having a small tuck to the belly on left rudder only,,
> >  is always a result in a little too much tail weight  ,,providing the stab 
> > halves and elevator halves are correct.
> > thats whats happening in your wandering 4/5`s
> > the tail weight as is ,,is making you add a little down elevator trim 
> > because  the wing is flying a little more positive.
> > You want to create the pos angle of attack with the wing only use the tail 
> > weight only to adjust the feel for rolls and inverted flight.
> > engine thrust is contributory But ,not doing anything in the left knife 
> > edge.
> > it would be happening in the right rudder too.
> > sorry Nat..
> > approach  it like this, before you reset the down thrust ,,,because we 
> > want to know what really fixed it
> > increase the wing inc 1/32 "  more positive  or till it stopps pulling in 
> > the downline , some airplane require the wing  more than 1/2 deg 
> > depending on weight and airfoils 1/2 pos. is not a hard deck and you will 
> > have to move the cg forward to remove the left rudder knife mix ,,move it 
> > till you find a sweet spot , between downlines and both knife edges.
> > , Always remember tail heavy makes the elevator and rudder  sensitive  and 
> > nose wweightmakes them a little numb but  much more effective
> > your spins,snaps entry and exits ,, up and downline,45`s will be corrected
> > you will also see improvement in the wind due to the forward c/g and pos 
> > inc. add pos wing inc till it stops pulling to the canopy in the downs
> > and let us know what happens
> > Bryan
> > darn now I have given away the family secrets ,And
> > I have just made it harder to beat Chad <G>
> >
> > ---- Nat Penton <natpenton at centurytel.net> wrote:
> >> Chad
> >> Your  problem is caused by the large difference between T/L and wing. 
> >> Reduce
> >> the downthrust by 1 deg and reduce the wing incidence by 1 deg , and 
> >> test.
> >>
> >> We will go from there.
> >>
> >> Your excess downthrust requires up elev trim when under power. You need 
> >> to
> >> adjust wing and T/L to avoid other problems. If you just lower the wing 
> >> inc
> >> it will go to the belly in knife. If you just reduce the D/T it will go 
> >> to
> >> the canopy in knife.                                                  Nat
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> From: "Chad Northeast" <chadnortheast at shaw.ca>
> >> To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us>
> >> Sent: Monday, March 10, 2008 4:57 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] the joy of trim
> >>
> >>
> >> > Ok you trim masters, here is a tricky one for you.
> >> >
> >> > Bryan and I have been through this a bit last year but I ran out of 
> >> > time
> >> > before the Worlds to fix it and just flew with what I had.
> >> >
> >> > On my Twister I have this pesky problem, the setup is like so,
> >> >
> >> > wing = 1/2+ Bryans suggestion and I like it
> >> > stab = 0
> >> > motor = factory claims 2.5 down, have not measured but could if asked, 
> >> > I
> >> > have added more to cure a problem see below
> >> > CG = has been anywhere from 275 to 300mm from TE mostly with the same
> >> > result.  Currently its around 285-290 and it feels good at that point. 
> >> > 45
> >> > ups inverted track almost hands off if under enough power.
> >> >
> >> > Symptoms,
> >> >
> >> > Plane flies well, at this setup I need 0 mix right rudder to ele in 
> >> > knife,
> >> > and about 2% up ele with left rudder in knife,
> >> > about 1/32" down elevator with idle to fix a downline
> >> > Added downthrust as the increase in wing inc. and more forward CG 
> >> > really
> >> > helped the mix in knife and made rollers easier, but forced an increase 
> >> > in
> >> > downthrust as the plane started pulling to the canopy on uplines.
> >> > Downline mix remained the same.
> >> >
> >> > The big problem I cannot resolve is this, a 45 deg down upright (motor 
> >> > at
> >> > idle) the plane pitches to the belly and will not track on its own for 
> >> > any
> >> > length of time.  If I switch the idle-down mix off its rock solid on 
> >> > that
> >> > line.
> >> >
> >> > I am open to all suggestions now that I have a bit of time to play with
> >> > this, I hope Bryan chimes in some more as I would like to continue 
> >> > where
> >> > we left off last fall.  If you suggest something I will do my best to 
> >> > give
> >> > it a go and let you know how it works (provided it doesn't snow!)
> >> >
> >> > The plane is basically super locked in with this setup, except for the
> >> > silly 45 down upright, which is a problem in cubans and such.
> >> >
> >> > Comments and thoughts from the masters are most appreciated :)  I 
> >> > consider
> >> > myself one of the, cant really trim that well but can fly through it 
> >> > just
> >> > fine types :)
> >> >
> >> > Chad
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >> >
> >>
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