[NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI

[Del]

Chris... 
 
    Please!!!  don't take this personally directed at you or any one individual. The list is a great medium to have intellectually stimulating discussion that often is educational. 
 
    Judging is an arbitrary art.  Do we all have the same calibrated eyeball? No.. But all judges should be seeing and judging the same maneuver with similar downgrades. Are all downgrades going to be identical.. Not realistically ~  No..  Is that the best we can do.. possibly..?  The NSRCA has worked hard with many volunteers over the years trying to enlighten and improve the caliber of judging and it is much better than it was 20 years ago.. 
 
    At this stage of evolution when the judges are reduced to nit picking shows how well the judging has improved for the overall big picture. Is it realistic to stop the nitpicking.. It is part of the beast we enjoy to participate in..  Some terminology in the judging guide could be tweaked and improved on for those that like to over analyze. The snap by its very nature if often judged just on the merits of the snap itself which no judge should ever do.  Entry and exit are also worthy of their focus. That snap in some cases happens in less than 1 sec. It is always going to have disparity in the scores just based on the fact not all eyes see and recognize all the details they need to catch in that sec. let alone feeling burnout or watery eyes etc. that make a judge miss something. 
 
    It is hard to expect all judges to shift gears from FAI to AMA and back again during the same day or same contest. Dwindling numbers make that a reality. 
 
    I will always contend that your mission as a pattern competitor is to show the judges to the best of your ability what the rule books describes. As a pilot if you try to change your flying to what one given judge expects your are hurting yourself and your overall performance.  I guess that is why they still insist on throwing out some judges scores at the major competitions. Wish it weren't so but that is also part of the process. 
 
    I personally didn't read anyone saying they were judging by the way they like it..  I may have missed some posts but what I read, some were showing, for clarification, that some statements being made, where in error and just trying to clarify what the specific rule actually states...  Not what someone interprets..  
 
    I have always had an issues in FAI judging when 2 pilots flies identical maneuvers and one flies consistently 5 degrees off in track/heading and the other flies on the rail do they both deserve a 10 if all elements in the maneuver have been done per the rules?  Some argue that 1 point / 15 is applied before they get to a 15º error..  others read it to mean that your don't give a down grade till at least 15º of track have been shown.  Thankfully in AMA we have the 1/2 points to work with. 
 
    So  yes you are right that no judge is to judge based on what they prefer except when it comes to style and presentation ~ the lower criteria for downgrades.  
  
 ~~~ Who gets the better score...?  Dean Pappas once told us that the one that hides their corrections the best.  That alone is another art /subject. So when judging ~~ do you best to be consistent and fair to all.. When flying ~~ do your best to show the judges you do know how to fly the maneuvers without any detectable errors. Learn to hide your corrections. 
 
    I sincerely hoped I helped Chris.  Feel free to comment on or off list as you feel apropos. I still love the sport and what it has to offer but am having to give it up ~~ possibly forever..  only time can tell.. 
 
        Del 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: chris moon 
  To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 12:15 PM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI


  Is it not the pilot's responsibility to simply fly the maneuver as 
  depicted? Why then must they exaggerate a portion to placate a judge 
  who wants to see it their way? Our judging training materials 
  distinctly say not to downgrade just because the maneuver is not done 
  the way you like. The example was one pilot making sharp corners in a 
  square loop vs another making larger more rounded corner. Both are 
  correct and should be judged identically but can anyone argue that one 
  way should be downgraded because it was not the way "you like it" 
  Stalls, snaps and spins are no different. Not the way I like it = so 
  what. If it is done correctly it is always a 10. I would think that if 
  the other judges are consistently giving "normal" scores and I am 
  zeroing or giving some nominal score, that there has to be an issue 
  going on. Am I the only one who is consistently right in my thinking 
  and everyone else is all wrong? Or, could it be the other way around?

  Chris



  Del wrote:
  > It is the "PILOTS" responsibility to fly the maneuver as described per 
  > the rules. If said pilots chooses to not make it obvious or 
  > discernable to the judge then enjoy the score you should be awarded.
  > Del
  >
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > *From:* chris moon 
  > *To:* nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
  > 
  > *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 5:11 PM
  > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
  >
  > George - you have made an excellent point in that the interval may by
  > "minuscule" and not overly noticeable to everyone. It is absolutely
  > wrong for some to claim that you must "show" them as judge an
  > exaggerated pitch up just to satisfy a personal interpretation of the
  > maneuver. Just as is is absolutely wrong for those judges to demand
  > another overly exaggerated pitch up as a stall entry to a spin
  > maneuver. It is never the job of the participant to exaggerate a
  > portion of a maneuver just to prove it exists, therefore your
  > usage of
  > the term "minuscule" in terms of the time interval between pitch and
  > rotation is something we need to keep in mind.
  >
  > Chris
  >
  > george w. kennie wrote:
  > > My lip is becoming too painful from biting it, so I think I'm
  > going to
  > > stick my nose in here somewhere.
  > > I think I'm with Jon on this one.
  > > My logic, however flawed, tells me that if I am flying my plane
  > > straight and level and I input rudder, no matter how much, there
  > is no
  > > way that this input will induce a stall to the airframe.
  > Therefore, it
  > > seems to me, that the necessary force required to stall the main
  > > lifting surface must come from the elevator. It would further
  > seem to
  > > me that this input must, by it's very nature produce a pitching
  > > attitude to the fuselage whether positive or negative. So I
  > would have
  > > to conclude that the attitude "break" referenced by the rule can
  > only
  > > refer to a "pitch" break and would be impossible to confuse with an
  > > attitude change induced by the rudder seeing that the required
  > result
  > > is to stall the main wing.
  > > And yes Jon, I agree that it would be necessary to lead with the
  > > elevator in order to bring about this attitude change before
  > rotation
  > > is started, however miniscule the interval might be.
  > > Of course I'm still open to hearing other interpretations and their
  > > validations as these observations are strictly opinions.
  > > G.
  > >
  > > ----- Original Message -----
  > > *From:* Jon Lowe
  > > *To:* nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
  > >
  > > *Sent:* Monday, June 16, 2008 2:10 PM
  > > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI
  > >
  > > Jim,
  > >
  > > I have no clue how you think all three axes can be initiated at
  > > the same time. You keep forgetting the part of the RULE, quoted
  > > verbatim below, that says the "fuselage break and separation from
  > > the flight path" must happen "BEFORE THE ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm
  > > NOT equating fueselage break to pitch break, it could break in
  > > pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the same time.
  > > If you initiate all three axis at the same time, rotation WILL
  > > start at the same instant, and that is specifically NOT permitted.
  > > READ THE RULE! The judge MUST determine if the fuselage broke and
  > > separated from the flight path first, BEFORE the rotation started.
  > > If it didn't, he MUST severely downgrade.
  > >
  > >
  > > Jon Lowe
  > >
  > >
  > > -----Original Message-----
   Klipped 4 reposting
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