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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Chris... </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> Please!!! don't
take this personally directed at<EM> <FONT size=3><U>you</U></FONT></EM> or any
<U>one individual</U>. The list is a great medium to have intellectually
stimulating discussion that often is educational. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> Judging is an arbitrary
art. Do we all have the same calibrated eyeball? No.. But all judges
should be seeing and judging the same maneuver with similar downgrades. Are
all downgrades going to be identical.. Not realistically ~ No..
Is that the best we can do.. possibly..? The NSRCA has worked hard with
many volunteers over the years trying to enlighten and improve the caliber of
judging and it is much better than it was 20 years ago.. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> At this stage of
evolution when the judges are reduced to nit picking shows how well the judging
has improved for the overall big picture. Is it realistic to stop the
nitpicking.. It is part of the beast we enjoy to participate in.. Some
terminology in the judging guide could be tweaked and improved on for those that
like to over analyze. The snap by its very nature if often judged just on the
merits of the snap itself which no judge should ever do. Entry and exit
are also worthy of their focus. That snap in some cases happens in less than 1
sec. It is always going to have disparity in the scores just based on the fact
not all eyes see and recognize all the details they need to catch in that sec.
let alone feeling burnout or watery eyes etc. that make a judge miss something.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> It is hard to expect all
judges to shift gears from FAI to AMA and back again during the same day or same
contest. Dwindling numbers make that a reality. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> I will always contend
that your mission as a pattern competitor is to show the judges to the best of
your ability what the rule books describes. As a pilot if you try to change your
flying to what one given judge expects your are hurting yourself and your
overall performance. I guess that is why they still insist on throwing out
some judges scores at the major competitions. Wish it weren't so but that is
also part of the process. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> I personally didn't read
anyone saying they were judging by the way they like it.. I may have
missed some posts but what I read, some were showing, for clarification, that
some statements being made, where in error and just trying to clarify what the
specific rule actually states... Not what
someone interprets.. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> I have always had an
issues in FAI judging when 2 pilots flies identical maneuvers and one flies
consistently 5 degrees off in track/heading and the other flies on the rail do
they both deserve a 10 if all elements in the maneuver have been done per the
rules? Some argue that 1 point / 15 is applied before they get to a 15º
error.. others read it to mean that your don't give a down grade till at
least 15º of track have been shown. Thankfully in AMA we have the 1/2
points to work with. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> So yes you are
right that no judge is to judge based on what they prefer except when it comes
to style and presentation ~ the lower criteria for downgrades.
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> ~~~ Who gets the better
score...? Dean Pappas once told us that the one that hides their
corrections the best. That alone is another art /subject. So when judging
~~ do you best to be consistent and fair to all.. When flying ~~ do your best to
show the judges you do know how to fly the maneuvers without any detectable
errors. Learn to hide your corrections. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> I sincerely hoped I
helped Chris. Feel free to comment on or off list as you feel apropos. I
still love the sport and what it has to offer but am having to give it up ~~
possibly forever.. only time can tell.. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> Del
</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=cjm767driver@hotmail.com href="mailto:cjm767driver@hotmail.com">chris
moon</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, June 17, 2008 12:15
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Is it not the pilot's responsibility to simply fly the maneuver
as <BR>depicted? Why then must they exaggerate a portion to placate a judge
<BR>who wants to see it their way? Our judging training materials
<BR>distinctly say not to downgrade just because the maneuver is not done
<BR>the way you like. The example was one pilot making sharp corners in a
<BR>square loop vs another making larger more rounded corner. Both are
<BR>correct and should be judged identically but can anyone argue that one
<BR>way should be downgraded because it was not the way "you like it"
<BR>Stalls, snaps and spins are no different. Not the way I like it = so
<BR>what. If it is done correctly it is always a 10. I would think that if
<BR>the other judges are consistently giving "normal" scores and I am
<BR>zeroing or giving some nominal score, that there has to be an issue
<BR>going on. Am I the only one who is consistently right in my thinking
<BR>and everyone else is all wrong? Or, could it be the other way
around?<BR><BR>Chris<BR><BR><BR><BR>Del wrote:<BR>> It is the "PILOTS"
responsibility to fly the maneuver as described per <BR>> the rules. If
said pilots chooses to not make it obvious or <BR>> discernable to the
judge then enjoy the score you should be awarded.<BR>> Del<BR>><BR>>
----- Original Message -----<BR>> *From:* chris moon
<MAILTO:CJM767DRIVER@HOTMAIL.COM><BR>> *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>>
<MAILTO:NSRCA-DISCUSSION@LISTS.NSRCA.ORG><BR>> *Sent:* Monday, June 16,
2008 5:11 PM<BR>> *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI<BR>><BR>> George - you have made an excellent point in that the
interval may by<BR>> "minuscule" and not overly noticeable to everyone. It
is absolutely<BR>> wrong for some to claim that you must "show" them as
judge an<BR>> exaggerated pitch up just to satisfy a personal
interpretation of the<BR>> maneuver. Just as is is absolutely wrong for
those judges to demand<BR>> another overly exaggerated pitch up as a stall
entry to a spin<BR>> maneuver. It is never the job of the participant to
exaggerate a<BR>> portion of a maneuver just to prove it exists, therefore
your<BR>> usage of<BR>> the term "minuscule" in terms of the time
interval between pitch and<BR>> rotation is something we need to keep in
mind.<BR>><BR>> Chris<BR>><BR>> george w. kennie wrote:<BR>>
> My lip is becoming too painful from biting it, so I think I'm<BR>>
going to<BR>> > stick my nose in here somewhere.<BR>> > I think
I'm with Jon on this one.<BR>> > My logic, however flawed, tells me that
if I am flying my plane<BR>> > straight and level and I input rudder, no
matter how much, there<BR>> is no<BR>> > way that this input will
induce a stall to the airframe.<BR>> Therefore, it<BR>> > seems to
me, that the necessary force required to stall the main<BR>> > lifting
surface must come from the elevator. It would further<BR>> seem to<BR>>
> me that this input must, by it's very nature produce a pitching<BR>>
> attitude to the fuselage whether positive or negative. So I<BR>> would
have<BR>> > to conclude that the attitude "break" referenced by the rule
can<BR>> only<BR>> > refer to a "pitch" break and would be impossible
to confuse with an<BR>> > attitude change induced by the rudder seeing
that the required<BR>> result<BR>> > is to stall the main
wing.<BR>> > And yes Jon, I agree that it would be necessary to lead
with the<BR>> > elevator in order to bring about this attitude change
before<BR>> rotation<BR>> > is started, however miniscule the
interval might be.<BR>> > Of course I'm still open to hearing other
interpretations and their<BR>> > validations as these observations are
strictly opinions.<BR>> > G.<BR>> ><BR>> > ----- Original
Message -----<BR>> > *From:* Jon Lowe<BR>> > *To:*
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR>> ><BR>> > *Sent:* Monday,
June 16, 2008 2:10 PM<BR>> > *Subject:* Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI<BR>> ><BR>> > Jim,<BR>> ><BR>> > I have
no clue how you think all three axes can be initiated at<BR>> > the same
time. You keep forgetting the part of the RULE, quoted<BR>> > verbatim
below, that says the "fuselage break and separation from<BR>> > the
flight path" must happen "BEFORE THE ROTATION IS STARTED". I'm<BR>> >
NOT equating fueselage break to pitch break, it could break in<BR>> >
pitch and/or yaw, if it doesn't start rotation at the same time.<BR>> >
If you initiate all three axis at the same time, rotation WILL<BR>> >
start at the same instant, and that is specifically NOT permitted.<BR>>
> READ THE RULE! The judge MUST determine if the fuselage broke and<BR>>
> separated from the flight path first, BEFORE the rotation
started.<BR>> > If it didn't, he MUST severely downgrade.<BR>>
><BR>> ><BR>> > Jon Lowe<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >
-----Original Message-----<BR><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff> Klipped 4
reposting</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>