[NSRCA-discussion] Daffynitions & pitch ...

Tue Jun 17 06:40:49 AKDT 2008

I guess it has evolved to the point of the judging committee defining clearly what the descriptive words mean in the daffynitions of the rule book. Pitch has always meant only one thing in all aviation encounters I have ever participated in. 

    Del

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) 
  To: General pattern discussion 
  Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 1:37 PM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI

  Jon,

  I'm shocked - you are totally wrong here.  Do not equate "fuselage" to "pitch" in the reading of this definition.  As a judge you should NOT apply a "pitch-assessment" pass/fail criteria to judging FAI snap rolls.  It is completely rejected.  The plane and therefore "fuselage" must autorotate about the flight axis, which means that the nose and tail of the plane will move in a conical fashion.  The pilot can initiate with all 3 axis at one time. 

  It is the responsibility of the judge to determine if autorotation occurred, and not determine how or in what order the pilot did it.  

  Thanks,

  Jim

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  From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Jon Lowe
  Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 1:21 PM
  To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI

  You are correct, as long as there is no roll induced at the same instant.  I overlooked that possibility.  Not sure how rudder alone will induce the "supposed to be in a stalled condition" though!!  There are many attitudes (e.g. 45 down on center) where a judge could not likely see a rudder departure alone first, and thus conclude that departure did not occur before the roll departure started.  And a judge might also not see a pitch departure first on a end box upline snap, but he could see rudder first.  It is VERY clear that simultaneous roll with either or both of the other axes departures is NOT allowed as others have tried to state here.    I did say that pitch and yaw departure could happen simutaneously, in my original post, as long as roll doesn't occur at the same time.

  Jon Lowe

  -----Original Message-----
  From: JShulman <jshulman at cfl.rr.com>
  To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
  Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:22 am
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI

  Jon,

  I don't see where it says pitch break? Rudder first will show attitude break and separation from the flight path. So if one uses rudder and elevator first this is also correct.

  Regards,
  Jason
  www.jasonshulman.com
  www.shulmanaviation.com
  www.composite-arf.com 

    -----Original Message-----
    From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Jon Lowe
    Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 12:11 PM
    To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
    Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI

    I suggest people re-read the definition ofsnap-rolls from the FAI sporting code.  I did a few minutes ago.  Here it is:

    "5B.7.5. SNAP-ROLLS

    A snap-roll (or flick roll/rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is in a stalled

    attitude, with a continuous high angle of attack

    Snap-rolls have the same judging criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation, and

    constant flight path through the manoeuvre is concerned.

    At the start of a snap-roll, the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the

    flight path, before the rotation is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be in a stalled

    condition throughout the manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft barrelrolls

    around, the manoeuvre must be severely downgraded (more than 5 points). Similarly, axial

    rolls disguised as snap-rolls must be severely downgraded (more than 5 points).

    Snap-rolls can be flown both positive and negative, and the same criteria apply. The attitude

    (positive or negative) is at the competitor's discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an unstalled

    condition during the snap-roll, the manoeuvre is severely downgraded using the 1 point/15 degree

    rule."

    Note that "the fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from the flight path, before the rotation is started..."   That means that simultaneous pitch and rotation is specifically NOT permitted.  I would interpret it as meaning that pitch and yaw could theoretically happen simultaneously, as long as no roll is involved.  Sorry Matt, the rules as written do NOT allow actuation in all three axes simultaneously.  The rule also states that a constant flight path has to be maintained.

    Let's face it, the only way to prevent severe downgrading from EVERY judge, not just some judges, is to have a pitch break first.  Takes any question away.

    Jon Lowe

    -----Original Message-----
    From: rcmaster199 at aol.com
    To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
    Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46 am
    Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI

    A "Flick" and a "Snap" roll are the same roll in full scale aerobatics parlance and reference material. 

    Do these mean the same thing in model aerobatics? In my view, they do 

    The latest FAI regs allow actuation of the three main axes simultaneously...that is, the regs don't specifically differentiate "Pitch Break" from other deviations. I don't think they specifically require that the model must rotate about it's flight path either, I don't believe (.....plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight axis....). The model would probably present the best if that's done, so pilots may want to consider that when executing the maneuver. 

    In my take, a rapid Pitch is desired to preload the wing. Contrary to popular belief, both panels dot not have to stall for a snap to occur. Quite the opposite. Upon rudder deflection, the port panel will practically stall (lift much much less than the other panel) but the starboard panel must be lifting to create the autorotation. If both panels stall, the model will fall out of the sky for a distance and a snap would not occur at the correct moment in time 

    MattK 

    -----Original Message----- 
    From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <jim.woodward at baesystems.com> 
    To: General pattern discussion <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> 
    Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 8:47 am 
    Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in FAI 

    Guys, 

    I thought the FAI changes explicitly allowed flick rolls? The rule 
    reads, "... fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation 
    from the flight path." 

    It does not say, "MUST SHOW PITCH BREAK." Please DO NOT ERROUNIOUSLY 
    APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR DEDUCTION initial assessment to the snap roll. 
    Watch the whole maneuver then render your score. 

    A break and separation from the flight path simply means that the nose 
    and tail of the plane must rotate in a conical fashion about the fight 
    axis. Yaw, roll, and pitch can all break at the same moment if that is 
    how the pilot does it. 

    Hey :) some really handsome smart guy wrote some stuff at this link 
    below about snap rolls to help clarify how they are done in IMAC. 

    http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77 

    thanks, 
    Jim 

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