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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I guess it has evolved to the point
of the judging committee defining clearly what the descriptive words mean in the
daffynitions of the rule book. Pitch has always meant only one thing in all
aviation encounters I have ever participated in. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> Del</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=jim.woodward@baesystems.com
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">Woodward, Jim (US SSA)</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">General pattern discussion</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 16, 2008 1:37 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jon,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I’m shocked - you are
totally wrong here. Do not equate “fuselage” to “pitch” in the reading
of this definition. As a judge you should NOT apply a “pitch-assessment”
pass/fail criteria to judging FAI snap rolls. It is completely
rejected. The plane and therefore “fuselage” must autorotate about the
flight axis, which means that the nose and tail of the plane will move in a
conical fashion. The pilot can initiate with all 3 axis at one time.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">It is the
responsibility of the judge to determine if autorotation occurred, and not
determine how or in what order the pilot did it.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thanks,</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jim</SPAN></FONT><FONT
color=navy><SPAN style="COLOR: navy"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Jon Lowe<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, June 16, 2008 1:21
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B>
nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">You are correct, as long as there is no
roll induced at the same instant. I overlooked that possibility.
Not sure how rudder alone will induce the "supposed to be in a stalled
condition" though!! There are many attitudes (e.g. 45 down on
center) where a judge could not likely see a rudder departure alone
first, and thus conclude that departure did not occur before the roll
departure started. And a judge might also not see a pitch
departure first on a end box upline snap, but he could see rudder first.
It is VERY clear that simultaneous roll with either or both of the
other axes departures is NOT allowed as others have tried to
state here. I did say that pitch and yaw departure could
happen simutaneously, in my original post, as long as roll doesn't occur at
the same time.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Jon Lowe<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: JShulman <jshulman@cfl.rr.com><BR>To:
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName>
<nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org><BR>Sent: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:22
am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_3_02b65284-83ea-4950-beb7-d8726e751af5>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Jon,</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=blue size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I don't see where it
says pitch break? Rudder first will show attitude break and separation from
the flight path. So if one uses rudder and elevator first this is also
correct.</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Regards,<BR>Jason<BR><A
href="http://www.jasonshulman.com/"
target=_blank>www.jasonshulman.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com/"
target=_blank>www.shulmanaviation.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com/"
target=_blank>www.composite-arf.com</A></SPAN></FONT> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in">
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org?">mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</A>]<B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Jon Lowe<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, June 16, 2008 12:11
PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap
entry in FAI</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I suggest people re-read the definition
ofsnap-rolls from the FAI sporting code. I did a few minutes
ago. Here it is:</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">"5B.7.5. <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">SNAP-ROLLS<o:p></o:p></SPAN></B></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">A snap-roll (or flick
roll/rudder roll) is a rapid autorotative roll where the model aircraft is
in a stalled<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">attitude, with a continuous high
angle of attack<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Snap-rolls have the same judging
criteria as axial rolls as far as start and stop of the rotation,
and<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">constant flight path through the
manoeuvre is concerned.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">At the start of a snap-roll, the
fuselage attitude must show a definite break and separation from
the<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">flight path, before the rotation
is started, since the model aircraft is supposed to be in a
stalled<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">condition throughout the
manoeuvre, If the stall/break does not occur and the model aircraft
barrelrolls<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">around, the manoeuvre must be
severely downgraded (more than 5 points). Similarly,
axial<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">rolls disguised as snap-rolls
must be severely downgraded (more than 5
points).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Snap-rolls can be flown both
positive and negative, and the same criteria apply. The
attitude<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">(positive or negative) is at the
competitor’s discretion. If the model aircraft returns to an
unstalled<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">condition during the snap-roll,
the manoeuvre is severely downgraded using the 1 point/15
degree<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">rule."<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>Note that "the fuselage attitude
must show a definite break and separation from the flight path, before the
rotation is started..." That means that simultaneous pitch and
rotation is specifically NOT permitted. I would interpret it as
meaning that pitch and yaw could theoretically happen simultaneously, as
long as no roll is involved. Sorry Matt, the rules as written do NOT
allow actuation in all three axes simultaneously. The rule also states
that a constant flight path has to be maintained.<BR><BR>Let's face it, the
only way to prevent severe downgrading from EVERY judge, not just some
judges, is to have a pitch break first. Takes any question
away.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Jon Lowe<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman"
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR><BR>-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: <A
href="mailto:rcmaster199@aol.com">rcmaster199@aol.com</A><BR>To: <A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A><BR>Sent:
Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:46 am<BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry in
FAI<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_0_f4e18038-9d63-45d9-87c7-a93410402f63>
<P class=MsoNormal style="BACKGROUND: white"><FONT face=Tahoma color=black
size=1><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">A
"Flick" and a "Snap" roll are the same roll in full scale aerobatics
parlance and reference material. <BR> <BR>Do these mean the same
thing in model aerobatics? In my view, they do <BR> <BR>The latest
FAI regs allow actuation of the three main axes simultaneously...that is,
the regs don't specifically differentiate "Pitch Break" from other
deviations. I don't think they specifically require that the model must
rotate about it's flight path either, I don't believe (.....plane must
rotate in a conical fashion about the fight axis....). The model would
probably present the best if that's done, so pilots may want to consider
that when executing the maneuver. <BR> <BR>In my take, a rapid
Pitch is desired to preload the wing. Contrary to popular belief, both
panels dot not have to stall for a snap to occur. Quite the opposite. Upon
rudder deflection, the port panel will practically stall (lift much much
less than the other panel) but the starboard panel must be lifting to create
the autorotation. If both panels stall, the model will fall out of the sky
for a distance and a snap would not occur at the correct moment in
time <BR> <BR>MattK <BR> <BR>-----Original
Message----- <BR>From: Woodward, Jim (US SSA) <<A
href="mailto:jim.woodward@baesystems.com">jim.woodward@baesystems.com</A>> <BR>To:
<st1:PersonName w:st="on">General pattern discussion</st1:PersonName> <<A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A>> <BR>Sent:
Mon, 16 Jun 2008 8:47 am <BR>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Snap entry
in FAI <BR> <BR>Guys, <BR> <BR>I thought the FAI changes
explicitly allowed flick rolls? The rule <BR>reads, "... fuselage
attitude must show a definite break and separation <BR>from the flight
path." <BR> <BR>It does not say, "MUST SHOW PITCH BREAK." Please
DO NOT ERROUNIOUSLY <BR>APPLY A PASS/FAIL MAJOR DEDUCTION initial
assessment to the snap roll. <BR>Watch the whole maneuver then render
your score. <BR> <BR>A break and separation from the flight path
simply means that the nose <BR>and tail of the plane must rotate in a
conical fashion about the fight <BR>axis. Yaw, roll, and pitch can all
break at the same moment if that is <BR>how the pilot does
it. <BR> <BR>Hey :) some really handsome smart guy wrote some
stuff at this link <BR>below about snap rolls to help clarify how they
are done in IMAC. <BR> <BR><A
href="http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77"
target=_blank>http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=77</A> <BR> <BR>thanks, <BR>Jim <BR> <BR> <BR>_______________________________________________ <BR>NSRCA-discussion
mailing list <BR><A
href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</A> <BR><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"
target=_blank>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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