[NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?
Tony
tony at radiosouthrc.com
Fri Feb 1 11:24:21 AKST 2008
That's why TBL is used at international events.
Tony Stillman, President
Radio South, Inc.
139 Altama Connector, Box 322
Brunswick, GA 31525
1-800-962-7802
www.radiosouthrc.com
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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Mark Atwood
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 1:04 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?
I have to strongly agree with Del on this one. Dropping scores in this
manner just isn't statistically valuable. You almost always just throw out
an entire judge.
I think those that favor this approach do so because of the stray "0" that
they've received sometime in their pattern career, and see dropping highs
(no one REALLY wants to throw out their high scores) and lows as a way to
get rid of the Zero awarded by the local Snap Nazi. It's just the wrong
approach.
Maybe with 30 judges it would have some relevance, but not with 5 or even
10. AND...more often than not, I've been MUCH more annoyed at the judge who
MISSED a zero, than one that maybe awarded one unjustifiably.
I'd rather go the route of having a "Zero" judge, who's sole job is to
determine that the correct maneuver was flown and that a Snap was a snap and
a spin a spin. The other judges simply judge what was flown... If a
maneuver was missed or out of sequence, the zero judge overrides those
scores. Ok...there's issues with that too (missing a point on a point roll
for example would be an issue)...just thinking as I type.
Anyhow...dropping highs and lows isn't the solution. (IMHO)
-Mark
On 2/1/08 11:40 AM, "Del Rykert" <drykert2 at rochester.rr.com> wrote:
I have always felt that throwing away a high and a low score not only
insults the judges but encourages judges to be number generators in the
middle of the road as they question giving a zero when they feel it was
earned but knowing it will be tossed if others didn't see the error.
To punish a judge that does a better job is always going to be the wrong
approach. I have repeatedly seen where the judge giving the lower score as
being the problem. I can't ever recall personally seeing Santa clausing
while at a contest. If judging is a bad as some seem to think they why not
have judges certified yearly for all contests. At least then you will be
using people that have proven they knew the rules when they took their
certification.
Del
----- Original Message -----
From: <seefo at san.rr.com <mailto:seefo at san.rr.com> <mailto:seefo at san.rr.com>
>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> >
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?
> For as long as I've been competing there has always been the problem of
judging being uninformed, inaccurate, etc. Not pointing fingers, it just is
what it is whenever you have volunteer judging.
>
> Personally I think the efforts made by Jason and the Tangerine people
should be applauded, REGARDLESS of whether or not the outcome is deemed
valid. The fact is they tried something new to solve a problem. If it works,
cool. If not, that's ok too. It just eliminates another incorrect choice at
solving the problem. This sort of outside-the-box thinking should be
encouraged.
>
> Having sat through MANY competitions where every one of my peers sees
errors that few, if any judges on the line catch (a certain TOC pilot's
wrong direction snap that only Peter Wessels caught comes to mind), I think
the idea of peer judging has a great deal of merit, even if only as a case
study comparison to standard judging methods. Who better to know what to
look for in a flight than the people flying it? So long as there is a
certain amount of normalization (such as dropping high & low scores) to
reduce bias, I honestly can't think of a reason not to try it.
>
> To a person, I trust everyone I know at this level of competition to judge
accurately and fairly, regardless of them being my competitor or not.
>
> -Doug Cronkhite
>
>
>
>
>
> ---- Ken Thompson <kthompson at stx.rr.com <mailto:kthompson at stx.rr.com>
<mailto:kthompson at stx.rr.com> > wrote:
>> I'm sorry Jason,
>>
>> But my comments have little to do with my respect for you, which I
obviously have, it's more that I have a much different opinion with respect
with the comments by Cameron Smith.
>> Cameron...your reputation precedes you...if you would like to take this
off line, I'd be happy to do so. You are opinionated, that's no problem, I
am also, but to call someone out in our forum, that's not right...So to
quote you...I'm here to say things honestly!!!
>> Let's both say what's on our mind...to quote you..."nice to see someone
with a set" I have mine, how 'bout you?
>>
>> Ken Thompson
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: JShulman
>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?
>>
>>
>> Hey guys, I don't mind Cameron's comments. I haven't exactly had much
sleep today, or I should say this morning, so I might have come off a bit
different than usual. I accept his opinion as being his, and welcome his
comments on how to help to improve judging. Not just for FAI, but for all of
pattern.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jason
>> www.jasonshulman.com <http://www.jasonshulman.com>
<http://www.jasonshulman.com>
>> www.shulmanaviation.com <http://www.shulmanaviation.com>
<http://www.shulmanaviation.com>
>> www.composite-arf.com <http://www.composite-arf.com>
<http://www.composite-arf.com>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5dOn> Behalf Of Ken
Thompson
>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:06 PM
>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?
>>
>>
>> This has got to me a freakin' joke...I haven't been posting much, but
things like this will make me come back to life!!!
>>
>> I don't believe the majority would want me to get back on the band
wagon with my opinions...this kind of post is pushing me in that
direction...
>>
>> Ken Thompson
>> NSRCA 3646
>> AMA 685343
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: C. Smith
>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?
>>
>>
>> Jim,
>>
>> I just got home, Sat down to eat my dinner & read the emails...
>>
>> When you read this to me this afternoon it did not make the
impression it did when I read it.....
>>
>> I am not trying to blow smoke up your skirt please believe me...
>>
>> It is refreshing to see someone say things honestly & in such a
way.... Too few say what needs to be said.....
>>
>>
>>
>> Jason's response came across as self serving damage control.. I
do not think he comes across as a sincere person. As a matter of fact he
seems very insecure......
>>
>> He came back at you by saying 3 of the 4 believe it WILL work..
But I could have sworn you showed me emails from Ryan disagreeing with the
practice..... I would bet you Joe & Ryan in public would agree with Jason
just to associate them selves with him.. I call this by many names....Weak,
Intellectually Dishonest & self serving..
>>
>> Oh well I just want you to know Good job-- Nice to see someone
with a set.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org%5d> On Behalf Of Woodward,
Jim
>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:47 PM
>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?
>>
>>
>> Hey Anthony,
>>
>>
>> **** Attempting a 50 words or less approach without too much regard
for political correctness *****
>>
>>
>> I don't think peer judging works. I don't think it sends the right
message about problem solving or achieving a more accurate score per
maneuver for each pilot. Psychology 101 would predict that it does not
foster the right mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment
(Reality TV shows like Survivor are based on one form or another of peer
judging).
>>
>>
>> The #1 component that must be correct for it to work is that all
pilot/judges see and subtract about the exact same number of points per
maneuver see the same downgrades. The situation doesn't compute if one
judge is off from the others or uses impression judging. A bunch of stuff
should probably be in place for this to work like: large number of judges,
drop high score, drop low score, etc. The highest caliber of honor,
integrity, and judge-education is required by all competitors to make this
work.
>>
>>
>> I witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI contest. I
watched the flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion is that I would
chose not to compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jim W.
>>
>>
>>
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>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us>
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us]
<mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us%5d> On Behalf Of Anthony
Romano
>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:44 PM
>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us>
<mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us>
>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?
>>
>>
>> Finally got a chance to read the current K-factor and saw a note on
the Tangerine contest. The article mentioned FAI was judged by a commity of
the FAI pilots. Could someone please provide details. Do you think you could
keep your objectivity? For those that were there how did it work out? Sound
interesting because you would finally be judged by pilots who know the FAI
rules and the sequence.
>> Could this be a solution for the oversized Masters class? Obvious
drawbacks too, but trying to inspire some thought.
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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