[NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?
JShulman
jshulman at cfl.rr.com
Fri Feb 1 08:41:06 AKST 2008
I understand this all to well. Chances are if we start dropping high and low
scores, my scores will be the ones dropped 9 out of 10 times (although not
locally since we don't drop). I seem to be the low judge at all the
contests. My scores range from the 0-10, and not just 0's. I'll give 1-4's
just as easily as I'll give 5-9's (0's and 10's are harder to get). Of
course when I fly I've also been given scores higher than I would have given
myself. So I've received gifts from Santa as much as from Scrooge.
Certification will only work if it's applied and any bias is removed.
Unfortunately, that is not always the case.
The local (Orlando) FAI guys here are working together with flying as well
as "judging" to equalize our judging outlooks. We want to make sure that at
the least we are on the same page as far as what we are seeing in our
mistakes. As it turns out, we are also practicing together in ways we
haven't done in a few years, and that is paying off. Flying is getting
better each time we go out and practice. We want to make sure that when we
compete we are both flying and judging our best, not just one.
I was a part of an interesting thing at Tangerine scoring wise (with all
this talk about judging a different class). We had a pilot flying Masters
that ended up the wrong way on the first stall turn because the rolls
weren't as they were supposed to be, and the other judge caught it. I missed
it but caught the rolls back to inverted before the 2 of 4's and zeroed the
2 of 4's. So I had given a zero for the 2 of 4's and the other judge had
given a zero for the stall turn. We talked about it before we handed in the
sheets like always (but don't change the scores) and laughed at how we each
saw what the other didn't.
Anyone over in the UK (or anyone on the GBRCAA forum) care to elaborate on
the way peer judging is done over there? I was told it's similar with a few
changes to help make it work.
Regards,
Jason
www.jasonshulman.com
www.shulmanaviation.com
www.composite-arf.com
-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Del Rykert
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2008 11:40 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?
I have always felt that throwing away a high and a low score not only
insults the judges but encourages judges to be number generators in the
middle of the road as they question giving a zero when they feel it was
earned but knowing it will be tossed if others didn't see the error.
To punish a judge that does a better job is always going to be the wrong
approach. I have repeatedly seen where the judge giving the lower score as
being the problem. I can't ever recall personally seeing Santa clausing
while at a contest. If judging is a bad as some seem to think they why not
have judges certified yearly for all contests. At least then you will be
using people that have proven they knew the rules when they took their
certification.
Del
----- Original Message -----
From: <seefo at san.rr.com>
To: "NSRCA Mailing List" <nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?
> For as long as I've been competing there has always been the problem of
judging being uninformed, inaccurate, etc. Not pointing fingers, it just is
what it is whenever you have volunteer judging.
>
> Personally I think the efforts made by Jason and the Tangerine people
should be applauded, REGARDLESS of whether or not the outcome is deemed
valid. The fact is they tried something new to solve a problem. If it works,
cool. If not, that's ok too. It just eliminates another incorrect choice at
solving the problem. This sort of outside-the-box thinking should be
encouraged.
>
> Having sat through MANY competitions where every one of my peers sees
errors that few, if any judges on the line catch (a certain TOC pilot's
wrong direction snap that only Peter Wessels caught comes to mind), I think
the idea of peer judging has a great deal of merit, even if only as a case
study comparison to standard judging methods. Who better to know what to
look for in a flight than the people flying it? So long as there is a
certain amount of normalization (such as dropping high & low scores) to
reduce bias, I honestly can't think of a reason not to try it.
>
> To a person, I trust everyone I know at this level of competition to
judge accurately and fairly, regardless of them being my competitor or not.
>
> -Doug Cronkhite
>
>
>
>
>
> ---- Ken Thompson <kthompson at stx.rr.com> wrote:
>> I'm sorry Jason,
>>
>> But my comments have little to do with my respect for you, which I
obviously have, it's more that I have a much different opinion with respect
with the comments by Cameron Smith.
>> Cameron...your reputation precedes you...if you would like to take this
off line, I'd be happy to do so. You are opinionated, that's no problem, I
am also, but to call someone out in our forum, that's not right...So to
quote you...I'm here to say things honestly!!!
>> Let's both say what's on our mind...to quote you..."nice to see someone
with a set" I have mine, how 'bout you?
>>
>> Ken Thompson
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: JShulman
>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:12 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?
>>
>>
>> Hey guys, I don't mind Cameron's comments. I haven't exactly had much
sleep today, or I should say this morning, so I might have come off a bit
different than usual. I accept his opinion as being his, and welcome his
comments on how to help to improve judging. Not just for FAI, but for all of
pattern.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jason
>> www.jasonshulman.com
>> www.shulmanaviation.com
>> www.composite-arf.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ken Thompson
>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 8:06 PM
>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?
>>
>>
>> This has got to me a freakin' joke...I haven't been posting much,
but things like this will make me come back to life!!!
>>
>> I don't believe the majority would want me to get back on the band
wagon with my opinions...this kind of post is pushing me in that
direction...
>>
>> Ken Thompson
>> NSRCA 3646
>> AMA 685343
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: C. Smith
>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 6:48 PM
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?
>>
>>
>> Jim,
>>
>> I just got home, Sat down to eat my dinner & read the emails...
>>
>> When you read this to me this afternoon it did not make the
impression it did when I read it.....
>>
>> I am not trying to blow smoke up your skirt please believe
me...
>>
>> It is refreshing to see someone say things honestly & in such a
way.... Too few say what needs to be said.....
>>
>>
>>
>> Jason's response came across as self serving damage control..
I do not think he comes across as a sincere person. As a matter of fact he
seems very insecure......
>>
>> He came back at you by saying 3 of the 4 believe it WILL work..
But I could have sworn you showed me emails from Ryan disagreeing with the
practice..... I would bet you Joe & Ryan in public would agree with Jason
just to associate them selves with him.. I call this by many names....Weak,
Intellectually Dishonest & self serving..
>>
>> Oh well I just want you to know Good job-- Nice to see someone
with a set.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Woodward, Jim
>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 2:47 PM
>> To: NSRCA Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?
>>
>>
>> Hey Anthony,
>>
>>
>> **** Attempting a 50 words or less approach without too much
regard for political correctness *****
>>
>>
>> I don't think peer judging works. I don't think it sends the
right message about problem solving or achieving a more accurate score per
maneuver for each pilot. Psychology 101 would predict that it does not
foster the right mindset or circumstances for a competitive environment
(Reality TV shows like Survivor are based on one form or another of peer
judging).
>>
>>
>> The #1 component that must be correct for it to work is that all
pilot/judges see and subtract about the exact same number of points per
maneuver see the same downgrades. The situation doesn't compute if one
judge is off from the others or uses impression judging. A bunch of stuff
should probably be in place for this to work like: large number of judges,
drop high score, drop low score, etc. The highest caliber of honor,
integrity, and judge-education is required by all competitors to make this
work.
>>
>>
>> I witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI contest. I
watched the flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion is that I would
chose not to compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jim W.
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>
>> From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.f3a.us] On Behalf Of Anthony Romano
>> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:44 PM
>> To: nsrca-discussion at lists.f3a.us
>> Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?
>>
>>
>> Finally got a chance to read the current K-factor and saw a note
on the Tangerine contest. The article mentioned FAI was judged by a commity
of the FAI pilots. Could someone please provide details. Do you think you
could keep your objectivity? For those that were there how did it work out?
Sound interesting because you would finally be judged by pilots who know the
FAI rules and the sequence.
>> Could this be a solution for the oversized Masters class?
Obvious drawbacks too, but trying to inspire some thought.
>>
>> Anthony
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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