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<DIV><SPAN class=980082417-01022008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>I understand
this all to well. Chances are if we start dropping high and low scores, my
scores will be the ones dropped 9 out of 10 times (although not locally since we
don't drop). I seem to be the low judge at all the contests. My scores range
from the 0-10, and not just 0's. I'll give 1-4's just as easily as I'll give
5-9's (0's and 10's are harder to get). Of course when I fly I've also been
given scores higher than I would have given myself. So I've received gifts from
Santa as much as from Scrooge. Certification will only work if it's applied and
any bias is removed. Unfortunately, that is not always the
case.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=980082417-01022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=980082417-01022008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>The local
(Orlando) FAI guys here are working together with flying as well as
"judging" to equalize our judging outlooks. We want to make sure that at the
least we are on the same page as far as what we are seeing in our mistakes. As
it turns out, we are also practicing together in ways we haven't done in a few
years, and that is paying off. Flying is getting better each time we go out and
practice. We want to make sure that when we compete we are both flying and
judging our best, not just one.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=980082417-01022008><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=980082417-01022008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>I was a part
of an interesting thing at Tangerine scoring wise (with all this talk about
judging a different class). We had a pilot flying Masters that ended up the
wrong way on the first stall turn because the rolls weren't as they were
supposed to be, and the other judge caught it. I missed it but caught the rolls
back to inverted before the 2 of 4's and zeroed the 2 of 4's. So I
had given a zero for the 2 of 4's and the other judge
had given a zero for the stall turn. We talked about it before we
handed in the sheets like always (but don't change the scores) and laughed at
how we each saw what the other didn't.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=980082417-01022008><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Anyone over
in the UK (or anyone on the <FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff>GBRCAA forum) care to elaborate on the way peer judging
is done over there? I was told it's similar with a few changes to help make it
work.</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P><FONT
size=2>Regards,<BR>Jason<BR>www.jasonshulman.com<BR>www.shulmanaviation.com<BR>www.composite-arf.com</FONT>
</P>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Del
Rykert<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 01, 2008 11:40 AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA
Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging by
committee?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I have always felt that throwing
away a high and a low score not only insults the judges but encourages
judges to be number generators in the middle of the road as they question
giving a zero when they feel it was earned but knowing it will be tossed if
others didn't see the error. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>To punish a judge that does a
better job is always going to be the wrong approach. I have repeatedly seen
where the judge giving the lower score as being the problem. I can't ever
recall personally seeing Santa clausing while at a contest. If judging is a
bad as some seem to think they why not have judges certified yearly for all
contests. At least then you will be using people that have proven they knew
the rules when they took their certification. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> Del</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>----- Original Message -----
</FONT>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>From: <</FONT><A
href="mailto:seefo@san.rr.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>seefo@san.rr.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>To: "NSRCA Mailing List"
<</FONT><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2008
9:01 PM</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging by committee?</FONT></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR><FONT color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></FONT></DIV><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>> For as long as I've been competing there
has always been the problem of judging being uninformed, inaccurate, etc. Not
pointing fingers, it just is what it is whenever you have volunteer
judging.<BR>> <BR>> Personally I think the efforts made by Jason and the
Tangerine people should be applauded, REGARDLESS of whether or not the outcome
is deemed valid. The fact is they tried something new to solve a problem. If
it works, cool. If not, that's ok too. It just eliminates another incorrect
choice at solving the problem. This sort of outside-the-box thinking should be
encouraged. <BR>> <BR>> Having sat through MANY competitions where every
one of my peers sees errors that few, if any judges on the line catch (a
certain TOC pilot's wrong direction snap that only Peter Wessels caught comes
to mind), I think the idea of peer judging has a great deal of merit, even if
only as a case study comparison to standard judging methods. Who better to
know what to look for in a flight than the people flying it? So long as there
is a certain amount of normalization (such as dropping high & low scores)
to reduce bias, I honestly can't think of a reason not to try it. <BR>>
<BR>> To a person, I trust everyone I know at this level of competition to
judge accurately and fairly, regardless of them being my competitor or
not.<BR>> <BR>> -Doug Cronkhite<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> <BR>> ---- Ken Thompson <</FONT><A
href="mailto:kthompson@stx.rr.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>kthompson@stx.rr.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>> wrote: <BR>>> I'm sorry Jason, <BR>>> <BR>>> But
my comments have little to do with my respect for you, which I obviously have,
it's more that I have a much different opinion with respect with the comments
by Cameron Smith.<BR>>> Cameron...your reputation precedes you...if you
would like to take this off line, I'd be happy to do so. You are
opinionated, that's no problem, I am also, but to call someone out in our
forum, that's not right...So to quote you...I'm here to say things
honestly!!!<BR>>> Let's both say what's on our mind...to quote
you..."nice to see someone with a set" I have mine, how 'bout
you?<BR>>> <BR>>> Ken Thompson<BR>>> -----
Original Message ----- <BR>>> From: JShulman
<BR>>> To: NSRCA Mailing List <BR>>> Sent:
Thursday, January 31, 2008 7:12 PM<BR>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging by committee?<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> Hey guys, I don't mind Cameron's comments. I haven't
exactly had much sleep today, or I should say this morning, so I might have
come off a bit different than usual. I accept his opinion as being his, and
welcome his comments on how to help to improve judging. Not just for FAI, but
for all of pattern.<BR>>> <BR>>>
Regards,<BR>>> Jason<BR>>> </FONT><A
href="http://www.jasonshulman.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>www.jasonshulman.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>>> </FONT><A
href="http://www.shulmanaviation.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>www.shulmanaviation.com</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>>> </FONT><A
href="http://www.composite-arf.com"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>www.composite-arf.com</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
<BR>>> <BR>>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>>> From: </FONT><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]On
Behalf Of Ken Thompson<BR>>> Sent: Thursday,
January 31, 2008 8:06 PM<BR>>> To: NSRCA Mailing
List<BR>>> Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judgeing by commitee?<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> This has got to me a freakin' joke...I
haven't been posting much, but things like this will make me come back to
life!!!<BR>>> <BR>>> I don't believe the
majority would want me to get back on the band wagon with my opinions...this
kind of post is pushing me in that direction...<BR>>>
<BR>>> Ken
Thompson<BR>>> NSRCA
3646<BR>>> AMA
685343<BR>>> ----- Original Message
----- <BR>>> From: C. Smith
<BR>>> To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
<BR>>> Sent: Thursday, January 31,
2008 6:48 PM<BR>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> Jim,<BR>>>
<BR>>> I just got home, Sat
down to eat my dinner & read the emails... <BR>>>
<BR>>> When you read this to
me this afternoon it did not make the impression it did when I read
it.....<BR>>>
<BR>>> I am not trying
to blow smoke up your skirt please believe me...<BR>>>
<BR>>> It is refreshing to see
someone say things honestly & in such a way.... Too few say what needs to
be said.....<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> Jason's response
came across as self serving damage control.. I do not think he comes
across as a sincere person. As a matter of fact he seems very
insecure......<BR>>>
<BR>>> He came back at you by
saying 3 of the 4 believe it WILL work.. But I could have sworn you showed me
emails from Ryan disagreeing with the practice..... I would bet you Joe &
Ryan in public would agree with Jason just to associate them selves with him..
I call this by many names....Weak, Intellectually Dishonest & self
serving.. <BR>>>
<BR>>> Oh well I just want you
to know Good job-- Nice to see someone with a set.<BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>
From: </FONT><A href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT
face=Arial size=2>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Woodward,
Jim<BR>>> Sent: Thursday, January
31, 2008 2:47 PM<BR>>> To: NSRCA
Mailing List<BR>>> Subject: Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> Hey Anthony,<BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> **** Attempting
a 50 words or less approach without too much regard for political correctness
*****<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> I don't think peer judging
works. I don't think it sends the right message about problem solving or
achieving a more accurate score per maneuver for each pilot.
Psychology 101 would predict that it does not foster the right mindset or
circumstances for a competitive environment (Reality TV shows like Survivor
are based on one form or another of peer judging). <BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> The #1 component
that must be correct for it to work is that all pilot/judges see and subtract
about the exact same number of points per maneuver see the same
downgrades. The situation doesn't compute if one judge is off from the
others or uses impression judging. A bunch of stuff should probably be
in place for this to work like: large number of judges, drop high score,
drop low score, etc. The highest caliber of honor, integrity, and
judge-education is required by all competitors to make this work.
<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>> I
witnessed this as a Masters pilot watching the FAI contest. I watched
the flying and this scenario VERY close. My opinion is that I would chose not
to compete in FAI in a peer judging scenario. <BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> Thanks,<BR>>>
<BR>>> Jim W.<BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for
the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and
proprietary information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or
distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient(s),
please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the
original message. <BR>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>
<BR>>> From: </FONT><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us</FONT></A><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2> [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.f3a.us] On Behalf
Of Anthony Romano<BR>>> Sent:
Thursday, January 31, 2008 1:44
PM<BR>>> To: </FONT><A
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>nsrca-discussion@lists.f3a.us</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>>> Subject:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judgeing by commitee?<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> Finally got a chance to read
the current K-factor and saw a note on the Tangerine contest. The article
mentioned FAI was judged by a commity of the FAI pilots. Could someone please
provide details. Do you think you could keep your objectivity? For those that
were there how did it work out? Sound interesting because you would finally be
judged by pilots who know the FAI rules and the
sequence.<BR>>> Could this be
a solution for the oversized Masters class? Obvious drawbacks too, but trying
to inspire some thought.<BR>>>
<BR>>>
Anthony<BR>>>
<BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>
<BR>>> Helping your favorite cause
is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give. Learn more.<BR>>>
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_______________________________________________<BR>>>
NSRCA-discussion mailing list<BR>>>
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size=2>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>>> </FONT><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"><FONT
face=Arial
size=2>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>>> <BR>>> <BR>>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>>
<BR>>> <BR>>>
_______________________________________________<BR>>>
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href="mailto:NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org"><FONT face=Arial
size=2>NSRCA-discussion@lists.nsrca.org</FONT></A><BR><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>>> </FONT><A
href="http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion"><FONT
face=Arial
size=2>http://lists.nsrca.org/mailman/listinfo/nsrca-discussion</FONT></A><BR><FONT
face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>> <BR>>
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