[NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin

Sat Oct 20 18:46:25 AKDT 2007

Hi folks,
  My 2 cents...there are judges who zero everything except the deeply "buried" snaps or artifically-choreographed snaps, and I see pilots (including me) who practice making their planes do something they simply don't need to do to achieve a true 3-axis autorotative departure. (-insert lengthy and heated aerodynamics debate here-)

  Seems to me that the problem stills lies at the level of understanding the nature and aircraft-specific variances of a snap. Until we cross that bridge, pilots will simply try to get better at creating what they may think is an illusion, and judges will get better at appreciating the illusion. 

  John

Ron Lockhart <ronlock at comcast.net> wrote:
      True, additional emphasis, practice, judging seminars and field practice on snap/spins will help, and I'm glad to see them under way.  Though effort in this direction is not new, we have been working on snap/spin issues for over a decade.

  As Vince points out, there is a trade off between showing a clear break, and increased difficulty of staying on track and hitting the exit.  It's no suprise that the resulting judging task is quite difficult.

  Shall we retain the high K factor and high impact on round scores for snap/spin maneuvers while we continue
  our judge training efforts another year, two, three.......     

  Later, Ron Lockhart

    ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: vicenterc at comcast.net 
  To: NSRCA Mailing List ; NSRCA Mailing List 
  Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 5:57 PM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin

  I believe that judging seminars before the contest will help to minimize all these issues.  Today, I went to fly and I was trying to show the break in the snaps.  As we all know, the maneuver is a lot more difficult and the chances to go out of track are lot higher when we try to do it.  That is the single reason why we don't like to do it.  There is a clear trade off.  Probably, the CD before the contest have to announce clearly that judges will be looking for breaks in the snaps and downgrade accordingly.  I firmly believe that we will start to notice the change in the right direction.

  --
Vicente "Vince" Bortone

  -------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "J N Hiller" <jnhiller at earthlink.net> 

  v\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  o\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  w\:* {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }  .shape {   BEHAVIOR: url(#default#VML)  }                That would reduce the effect of inconsistent judging but I don’t think we should go there.
  I am flying Advanced and these snap maneuvers are somewhat new to me after several years out of pattern. I am experiencing a fair amount of inconsistency in flying the three maneuvers in the schedule (Avalanche, 45 down snap and 3 turn spin ‘all K-3’) having snap or spin elements. In looking at my score sheets from three 6 round contests I find only two occurrences where there were a big scoring difference 0 –7 & 8.5-3. Having judged snaps and spins a few times it can be a very close call as to whether the criteria is met or not and as a pilot I get the message that my presentation is questionable when I get large differences. 
  I am consistently posting lower 6 round averages for these than the K-4 maneuvers (6 side outside loop, triangle rolling loop, 4-point). I believe airplane design and set-up may be a bigger factor than skill, which is primarily symmetry and positioning. Retaining the K-3 gives us more incentive to acquire all necessary skills.
  Jim Hiller

  -----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Ron Lockhart
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 9:35 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging-snap & spin

  Eliminating is one solution - a price that comes with that solution is lack of practice doing and judging snaps-
  which is desirable for some in AMA classes, and for sure for those looking ahead to F3A.

  An in between thought - reduce the K factor considerable for snap and spin maneuvers.
  That leaves them in the schedules, provides flying and judging practice on them, but reduces the
  impact of the imperfect judging of them on round scores.

  Ron Lockhart
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: BUDDYonRC at aol.com 

  To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org 
  Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 11:44 AM
  Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging

  My cents worth on the subject.
  Snaps and Spin entry seem to cause much of the problem.
  Why do we continue to repeat trying to solve a problem that most agree is controversial at best and impossible to judge consistently on an equal basis?
  Seems that the best solution is to eliminate these from the schedules and pick maneuvers that more suit Precision Aerobatics and their ability to be judged correctly by everyone not just those who have advanced to the top of the super judge platform.

Buddy

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