[NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines, and Box Definition
Wayne Galligan
wgalligan at texasairnet.com
Wed May 16 19:48:08 AKDT 2007
Thanks Fred.... I needed that. :-)'
WG
----- Original Message -----
From: Fred Huber
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 10:17 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition
With judges directly behind the pilot...
If the poles are ate the 175 meter out limit line, then any time the plane appears beyond the pole, its definitively out of the box.
If the pole is closer in, then any time a plane closer in than the pole appears to pass the pole, it has broken the box, regardless of how far behind the pilot the judge is located. Planes further out than the pole might appear to the judges to have passed the pole without having broken the box.
The only time the box size and pole location appear the same to the judge (behind the pilot) is when the plane's flight line crosses directly over the poles.
Judges' error in apparant box limit by use of the poles when the poles are at the limit 175 meter line will be small (a wingspan or two maximum if the judge is less than 30 ft behind the pilot) and will give the close-in-flying pilot EXTRA room.
If the poles are at 150 meters and the pilot is flying at 175 meters... the poles being used as the judges' box limit reference will give an average error of appx a 2-meter pane's wingspan...
Judges' error in apparant box limit by use of poles at 1/2 the distance to the average line of flight can be severe, and unfairly would penalize the pilot. The closer in the poles are relative to the line of flight... the larger the box size error the judge will have if using the poles as a reference.
Thus Judges should never use poles as the reference if they are not out on the 150 meter to 175 meter flight line... unless the pilot is flying a line directly over the poles.
Poles are only a judges' reference if they are properly located.
******************
If you paint the reference lines and place the poles relative to the judge's position... then the pilot can't use them, and the pilot needs the references more than the judges.
----- Original Message -----
From: wgalligan
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition
Georgie,
The closer you fly in the greater the difference of perception. The pole is part of the box. So if the contestant was right on the pole you would downgrade? And if you are viewing from the judges chair and the pilot was on the pole from your perspective they would definitely be inside the box.
Perhaps the 60 degree line should run from the judges line of view and then there would be no question where the BOX is.
WG
----- Original Message -----
From: george w. kennie
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition
Lance,
The only time this becomes an issue is when the pilot is flying beyond the 150 meter distance. AT the 150 distance there is correspondance, inside of that distance, if the pilot touches the pole, he has violated the box.
You need to draw this out to scale on a good sized sheet of paper and it will become apparent.
G.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lance Van Nostrand
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition
Tony,
I don't agree that the view of the pilot and judge are the same. I have a habit, taught to me by senior judges in d6 long ago, that I do when judging. Before sitting down I stand in the pilot station and look at the poles( best) or a landmark on the box lines. then I sit and look again. I think it is amazing how even a 10 ft judge setback can change the perception of the box line. I know a lot of pilots that like to stretch the box and scrape the edges on turnarounds so its important to recognize even small parallax issues.
BTW Matt, there were 2 judging seminars in D6. One in Temple and one in Albuquerque. So many choices, it can be hard to choose.
--Lance
----- Original Message -----
From: Matthew Frederick
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 12:45 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition
Thank you, Tony. My point exactly. I'm glad someone else realized that I was not asking for help on how to avoid breaking the box, but just trying to bring up a potential problem with box size judging based on simple geometry. Even though seminars are making judging more uniform, there are still people like me who just flat-out can't make a 10-hour drive to a contest just so they can attend a seminar. The website is helpful; but open, ongoing discussion on these topics will keep them fresh in our minds.
Matt
----- Original Message -----
From: Tony Stillman
To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition
Matt:
This is something I have spoken about several times. The poles are there for the JUDGES. The lines are for the PILOTS. If the poles cannot be place on their proper location, THEY SHOULD NOT BE USED! This if because of the very thing that you are talking about. If the poles are at the 150 meter out location, the difference between the view of the pilot and the judges, even if they are 25 feet behind the pilot, are virtually the same. The closer you bring in the poles, but more of an error you will create.
Tony Stillman, President
Radio South
3702 N. Pace Blvd
Pensacola, FL 32505
1-800-962-7802
www.radiosouthrc.com
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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Matthew Frederick
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 1:29 PM
To: nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judges' Positioning, Zero Lines,and Box Definition
OK, this forum has been too quiet lately, so let's get some controversy going! This comment/question is mainly directed to Don Ramsey, but I would appreciate everyone's opinion. The good thing is, Don was at the contest where what I'm about to describe happened. What I'm talking about here is the positioning of judges behind the pilot. Under most circumstances the judges are positioned maybe 3-5 feet behind the pilot with each judge's seat placed on (or very close to) one of the 60-degree lines. Now, at a contest I attended last week the judges apparently decided it was too hot out there on the actual flight line, and they moved their chairs about 15-20 feet behind the pilot in the shade of the shed at this particular field. My question is, should this be something that is allowed since the judges' chairs define the zero line of the flight line (and moving it back this far puts spectators in danger), and also because it gives the judges an even more skewed view of the 60-degree lines than they already have? I bring this up partly because of what Don wrote in this month's K-Factor, but also because I was gigged for busting the box by these "displaced" (in Louisiana we call them refugees) judges when in fact, I knew I was close to the edge, but since I was actually standing on the line, I knew I didn't bust it. As a pilot I should not have to adjust the size of the box that I'm permitted to fly in just so the judges can be more comfortable (granted, comfort in the heat and humidity of Louisiana is relative). I didn't bring it up at the contest because by the time it bit me, it was too late to complain. In the future, however, I think there need to be rules regarding the positioning of judges if there aren't already, and if there are rules, let's bring them to light and enforce them, and you can bet I'll refuse to fly before judges that are that far behind me. Then again, I also think the close edge of the runway should be the zero line on maneuvers, not the judges' chairs. I did a little (ok, a lot) of math to figure out how much box a pilot would be missing out on with the judges postitioned 15 feet behind him. Using approximated numbers from the contest in question I calculated that if the poles are 40 feet out from the pilot, and the judges are 15 feet behind the pilot, the box size at 150 meters (which is 259.81m) based on the judges' point of view is reduced by 232.61 feet (70.9 m), or 25.2%! This would have been even greater if the poles were closer in or the judges were further back.
Matt
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