[NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

Fri Mar 2 09:09:47 AKST 2007

Hi Vince,
I find hiding the overall geometry by flying too large for the closeness to be as just as objectionable (or maybe moreso)  as flying too far out to see the details like wingtip wiggles etc.
Usually, the pilot who does this gives me plenty of 60 degree box-top violations to work with. In addition, they tend to fly poor overall geometries as well, because they can't see them!
The lemming-march to fly painfully close has dominated more than just a few nationals over the years and with the help of hidsight I can now point and laugh. At the time it was frustrating ...
Comments anybody else?
Dean

Dean Pappas 
Sr. Design Engineer 
Kodeos Communications 
111 Corporate Blvd. 
South Plainfield, N.J. 07080 
(908) 222-7817 phone 
(908) 222-2392 fax 
d.pappas at kodeos.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of vicenterc at comcast.net
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 11:17 AM
To: NSRCA Mailing List; NSRCA Mailing List
Cc: Jerry Stebbins
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

Talking about "Craftsmanship".  Sometimes, I have seen some pilots flying very close and big maneuvers.  That makes difficult for the judge to appreciate the geometry.  I have been downgrading  depending on the severity but never seen specifics in the rule book (besides going pass 60 degrees in severe cases).  Just to hear opinions.  
Vicente "Vince" Bortone 

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: "Jerry Stebbins" <JAStebbins at worldnet.att.net> 

Dean, I am going to dig it out and look, but i believe the Full Scale judging book does put the onus on the pilot.I'll check on it. I know some info I got from them a while ago read that way.It was part of their "Judging Evaluation" process.
I'll look and see if I kept it.
Anywho I totally agree that if the pilot wants the best scores -over time- he needs to show his skill not throw it at you. Your analogy to "Craftsmanship" is really appropiate!

Jerry

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Dean  <mailto:d.pappas at kodeos.com> Pappas 
To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

Hi Fred,
There is another whole aspect to the judging world!
We always discuss WHAT to judge ... and we should.

HOW to judge gets stickier, and I have seen, over the years, a handful of pilots score
remarkably well by utilizing flying styles that rush both maneuver elements and the judges.

We always tend to blame ourselves if we can't see what is supposed to be there, rather than blaming others.
That is civilized behavior: people who start out  by assuming the opposite are called sociopaths.
Well, a good judge is maybe just a little bit sociopathic. (temporary insanity?)
Let me go back to Matt K.'s statement of two or so days ago, when he
said that the onus is on the pilot to clearly demonstrate the good stuff to the judge,
and not on the judge to pick out the good stuff in the midst of a poor presentation.
You won't find this explicitly in any rule book, but common sense tells us that a real workman
proudly displays his good work so that it can best be admired, rather than hiding it in the middle of confusion.
If you were judging a debate, would you have to give someone the benefit of the doubt because they mumbled? Heck NO!
The mumbler gets downgraded.
Rushing is like mumbling ...come to think of it it isn't like mumbling, it is aero-mumbling.

Off my soapbox,
Dean

Dean Pappas 
Sr. Design Engineer 
Kodeos Communications 
111 Corporate Blvd. 
South Plainfield, N.J. 07080 
(908) 222-7817 phone 
(908) 222-2392 fax 
d.pappas at kodeos.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Fred Huber
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 9:46 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

I caught all kinds of flack at  judging training session for downgrading because a VERY well known pilit did a blazing fast 4-point....

All other judge trainees said 10... I said 0... the points weren't full stops.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Gene Maurice <mailto:gene.maurice at sgmservice.com>  
To: randy10926 at comtekmail.com ; 'NSRCA Mailing  <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> List' 
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

If the points are so fast as to make it indiscernible what angle they occurred at, then I would tend to doubt whether the point occurred at all. Score 0. It is the pilot's responsibility to present the maneuver in such a manner to demonstrate that the maneuver has in fact been done according to the rules. I sincerely doubt that a 4 point can be done in 1.25 seconds with defined stops in the roll every 90 degrees. But it remains that if, as a judge, you cannot clearly see the relevant elements of any maneuver being performed, then you should assume that IT HAS NOT been performed. The elements must be demonstrated not assumed. 

Don Ramsey, can you clarify?

Gene Maurice
gene.maurice at sgmservice.com
Plano, TX
AMA 3408, NSRCA 877

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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Hatfield
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 10:24 AM
To: nsrca-discuss list 
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

Ok time to get back to our favorite list questions.

This comes from a real life judging problem.  The question is about the 4-point roll.  This what I am seeing.  A 4 point roll that takes less than 1.25 second to complete.  You can see 4 very short pauses.  The manever appears to be centered.  I see no change in height or coming in or out.  It appears to be between 150M and 175M.  But the pauses are so short that I cannot really tell if the rolls between pauses are 90 degrees.  So I cannot see what the 1 point per 15 degree down grade should be.

What would you do?

Randy

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