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<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hi
Vince,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I find
hiding the overall geometry by flying too large for the closeness to be as just
as objectionable (or maybe moreso) as flying too far out to see the
details like wingtip wiggles etc.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Usually, the pilot who does this gives me plenty of 60 degree
box-top violations to work with. In addition, they tend to fly poor overall
geometries as well, because they can't see them!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>The
lemming-march to fly painfully close has dominated more than just a few
nationals over the years and with the help of hidsight I can now point and
laugh. At the time it was frustrating ...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Comments anybody else?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=435570318-02032007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Dean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>vicenterc@comcast.net<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 02, 2007 11:17
AM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List; NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Cc:</B> Jerry
Stebbins<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging
Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Talking about "Craftsmanship". Sometimes, I have seen some pilots
flying very close and big maneuvers. That makes difficult for the judge
to appreciate the geometry. I have been downgrading depending on
the severity but never seen specifics in the rule book (besides going pass 60
degrees in severe cases). Just to hear opinions. </DIV>
<DIV>Vicente "Vince" Bortone </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">--------------
Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Jerry Stebbins"
<JAStebbins@worldnet.att.net> <BR>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dean, I am going to dig it out and look, but i
believe the Full Scale judging book does put the onus on the pilot.I'll
check on it. I know some info I got from them a while ago read that way.It
was part of their "Judging Evaluation" process.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'll look and see if I kept it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Anywho I totally agree that if the pilot wants
the best scores -over time- he needs to show his skill not throw it at you.
Your analogy to "Craftsmanship" is really appropiate!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jerry</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=d.pappas@kodeos.com href="mailto:d.pappas@kodeos.com">Dean
Pappas</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">NSRCA Mailing List</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 01, 2007 9:02
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging Question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Hi
Fred,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>There is another
whole aspect to the judging world!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>We always discuss
WHAT to judge ... and we should.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>HOW to judge gets
stickier, and I have seen, over the years, a handful of pilots
score</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>remarkably well by
utilizing flying styles that rush both maneuver elements and the
judges.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>We always tend to
blame ourselves if we can't see what is supposed to be there, rather than
blaming others.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>That is civilized
behavior: people who start out by assuming the opposite are called
sociopaths.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Well, a good judge is
maybe just a little bit sociopathic. (temporary
insanity?)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Let me go back to
Matt K.'s statement of two or so days ago, when he</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>said that the
onus is on the pilot to clearly demonstrate the good stuff to the
judge,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>and not on the judge
to pick out the good stuff in the midst of a poor
presentation.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>You won't find this
explicitly in any rule book, but common sense tells us that a
real workman</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>proudly displays his
good work so that it can best be admired, rather than hiding it in the
middle of confusion.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>If you were judging
a debate, would you have to give someone the benefit of the doubt
because they mumbled? </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT
face=Arial>Heck NO!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>The mumbler gets
downgraded.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Rushing is
like mumbling ...come to think of it it isn't like mumbling,
it <EM>is</EM> aero-mumbling.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial>Off my
soapbox,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT
face=Arial>Dean</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=831334814-01032007><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman">Dean Pappas</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Sr. Design Engineer</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">Kodeos Communications</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">111 Corporate Blvd.</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">South Plainfield, N.J. 07080</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-7817 phone</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">(908) 222-2392 fax</FONT> <BR><FONT
face="Times New Roman">d.pappas@kodeos.com</FONT> </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org]<B>On Behalf Of
</B>Fred Huber<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, February 28, 2007 9:46
PM<BR><B>To:</B> NSRCA Mailing List<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>I caught all kinds of flack at judging training
session for downgrading because a VERY well known pilit did a blazing
fast 4-point....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>All other judge trainees said 10... I said 0... the
points weren't full stops.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=gene.maurice@sgmservice.com
href="mailto:gene.maurice@sgmservice.com">Gene Maurice</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=randy10926@comtekmail.com
href="mailto:randy10926@comtekmail.com">randy10926@comtekmail.com</A>
; <A title=nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org
href="mailto:nsrca-discussion@lists.nsrca.org">'NSRCA Mailing
List'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, February 28,
2007 1:38 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [NSRCA-discussion]
Judging Question</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">If the points
are so fast as to make it indiscernible what angle they occurred at,
then I would tend to doubt whether the point occurred at all. Score 0.
It is the pilot’s responsibility to present the maneuver in such a
manner to demonstrate that the maneuver has in fact been done
according to the rules. I sincerely doubt that a 4 point can be done
in 1.25 seconds with defined stops in the roll every 90 degrees. But
it remains that if, as a judge, you cannot clearly see the relevant
elements of any maneuver being performed, then you should assume that
IT HAS NOT been performed. The elements must be demonstrated not
assumed. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Don Ramsey,
can you clarify?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy">Gene
Maurice<BR>gene.maurice@sgmservice.com<BR><st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Plano</st1:City>, <st1:State
w:st="on">TX</st1:State></st1:place><BR>AMA 3408, NSRCA
877</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><FONT
face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Tahoma">
nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org
[mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces@lists.nsrca.org] <B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Glenn
Hatfield<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B>
Wednesday, February 28, 2007 10:24 AM<BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> nsrca-discuss list
<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>
[NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Ok time to get back to our
favorite list questions.<BR><BR>This comes from a real life judging
problem. The question is about the 4-point roll. This what
I am seeing. A 4 point roll that takes less than 1.25 second to
complete. You can see 4 very short pauses. The manever
appears to be centered. I see no change in height or coming in
or out. It appears to be between 150M and 175M. But the
pauses are so short that I cannot really tell if the rolls between
pauses are 90 degrees. So I cannot see what the 1 point per 15
degree down grade should be.<BR><BR><BR>What would you
do?<BR><BR><BR>Randy<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV>
<P>
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