[NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

Fri Mar 2 06:18:00 AKST 2007

Hi Larry,
The general principle is no double jeopardy. You don't get dunned twice for the same mistake.
Dean

Dean Pappas 
Sr. Design Engineer 
Kodeos Communications 
111 Corporate Blvd. 
South Plainfield, N.J. 07080 
(908) 222-7817 phone 
(908) 222-2392 fax 
d.pappas at kodeos.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org]On Behalf Of Lisa & Larry
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2007 12:13 AM
To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

Thanks Dave, Matt and Ken...

I'll get some rest and work on my math before asking the next question...I was questioning myself on how I was reading it, glad I asked the question....

Larry

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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Lockhart
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 11:04 PM
To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

Larry,

The 4 hesitations should be at 90, 180, 270, and 360 degrees.  The total number of degrees of deviation from 90, 180, 270, and 360 would be the number of degrees of error.

If I understand your scenario correctly, the first point is 25 degrees off (115 - 90 = 25).  The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th points are on target at 180, 270, and 360.  You have a total of 25 degree errors in roll.  Applying 1 point per 15 degrees.....you have 25 / 15 = 1.67

point deduction.... =s 8.33 which rounds to 8.5 for AMA or 8 for FAI.

25 degree errors in roll are quite large!!!  Penalizing the roll segment from 115 degrees to 180 degrees because it is less than 90 degrees of rotation would be double jeopardy.

Regards,

Dave Lockhart

DaveL322 at comcast.net

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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Lisa & Larry
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 11:09 PM
To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

OK...Here is an interesting scenario...I'm learning and wish to judge fairly and accurately, not trying to start a debate...

4 point roll...1st quarter roll is 115 degrees (over rotated), second is 65 degrees (corrected wings level), 3rd and 4th are 90 degrees....No other visible downgrades

RCA-23 4-point downgrade 1 states, "One-Quarter rolls more or less than 90 degrees.

Based on how I read it, the maneuver is scored an 8 for two quarters not rolling 90 degrees even though the second quarter corrected to wings level.

The other interpretation would be the implication in item 1, is referencing 90 degrees to a vertical or horizontal plain, and not rotation, resulting in a score of 9.

I'll apologize now in advance for where this may go...

Larry

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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Dave Lockhart
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 5:49 PM
To: 'NSRCA Mailing List'
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

The rules are -

- 1 point per 15 (FIFTEEN) degrees.  Summing partial points is allowable (recommended).

- A "perfect maneuver" is not necessarily defect free - it is free of defects that would warrant downgrading to a 9 (in FAI) or a 9.5 (in AMA).

- when "on the fence", round up.  Ie, a single 7.5 degree error in is a 0.5 point downgrade, - the score in FAI is 10, not 9.

Regards,

Dave Lockhart

DaveL322 at comcast.net

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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Del K. Rykert
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 6:30 PM
To: NSRCA Mailing List
Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

I  whole heartedly concur Fred.  Thanks for your reply. 

    Del

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Fred  <mailto:fhhuber at clearwire.net> Huber 

To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 4:39 PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

There's half-points... and while at FAI the half point doesn't go on a score sheet... I still count them, and round down before putting the score on the sheet.  9.5 becomes 9  7.5 becomes 7.  In your example.. he's going to have 3 or 4 half-points off for missing the points by appx 10 deg.  That puts him to an 8. (with no other errors)

And again... the original said (paraphrased) "I can see a point, but can't see deviation from the 90 deg incrimental orientations"  Thats NOT downgradable.  If its off from the 90 enough to downgrade, you will see it.  You're trying to compare apples and elephants.  If you see the point happened and don't see the point being off orientation... you have given no reason for downgrade.  Its a 10.

You can SEE the wings being more than 5 deg off level...  If you can see it... its worth a half point downgrade at least.  the knife is a little harder to see being off, especially when its centered.

If you are consistant... you can count tenths of a point errors if you want... then round according to your own method for a score that meets the whole point or half point incriments that get put on the sheet.  

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Del K. Rykert <mailto:drykert2 at rochester.rr.com>  

To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2007 1:51 PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

Hi Fred. 

    Do I assume 3 flyers you are judging doing point rolls, if all elements are done correctly, except for the points or a point, does pilot "A" who under rotates by  10º and pilot "B" who over rotates in a point by 10º and pilot "C" who nails the point @ 90º all get a 10 score?  All other elements are done perfect. Not typical real world but have been their and had to score as I interpret the rules. 

    Del

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Fred  <mailto:fhhuber at clearwire.net> Huber 

To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 9:56 PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

The original description said the points were noted.  

No downgrade for lack of points.

The original description just complained "I couldn't see if the point was ON the 90"  Well that means it was less than 15 deg off because you WOULD see 15 deg off.  

No downgrade.

No downgradable item was noted in the initial point roll description.

Its a 10

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Del K. Rykert <mailto:drykert2 at rochester.rr.com>  

To: NSRCA Mailing List <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org>  

Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 3:58 PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

I sure concur Gene .

        Del

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Gene Maurice <mailto:gene.maurice at sgmservice.com>  

To: randy10926 at comtekmail.com ; 'NSRCA Mailing  <mailto:nsrca-discussion at lists.nsrca.org> List' 

Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 2:38 PM

Subject: Re: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

If the points are so fast as to make it indiscernible what angle they occurred at, then I would tend to doubt whether the point occurred at all. Score 0. It is the pilot's responsibility to present the maneuver in such a manner to demonstrate that the maneuver has in fact been done according to the rules. I sincerely doubt that a 4 point can be done in 1.25 seconds with defined stops in the roll every 90 degrees. But it remains that if, as a judge, you cannot clearly see the relevant elements of any maneuver being performed, then you should assume that IT HAS NOT been performed. The elements must be demonstrated not assumed. 

Don Ramsey, can you clarify?

Gene Maurice
gene.maurice at sgmservice.com
Plano, TX
AMA 3408, NSRCA 877

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From: nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org [mailto:nsrca-discussion-bounces at lists.nsrca.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Hatfield
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2007 10:24 AM
To: nsrca-discuss list 
Subject: [NSRCA-discussion] Judging Question

Ok time to get back to our favorite list questions.

This comes from a real life judging problem.  The question is about the 4-point roll.  This what I am seeing.  A 4 point roll that takes less than 1.25 second to complete.  You can see 4 very short pauses.  The manever appears to be centered.  I see no change in height or coming in or out.  It appears to be between 150M and 175M.  But the pauses are so short that I cannot really tell if the rolls between pauses are 90 degrees.  So I cannot see what the 1 point per 15 degree down grade should be.

What would you do?

Randy

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